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Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

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231–240 of 757 posts

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values. Acceptable for entertainment, but inherently prone to misinformation, propaganda, and demagoguery. Education requires valuing subject matter ex…

"We really just need better public education" I agree 100% as long as you put me, or people of my worldview, in charge of the curriculum and personnel.

We've already got people with the correct worldview in charge of curriculum and personnel. The problem is that there are still dumb-dumbs that sometimes think there are valid alternatives to our worldview. That's why we need better education.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values. Acceptable for entertainment, but inherently prone to misinformation, propaganda, and demagoguery. Education requires valuing subject matter ex…

We really just need better public education That's great but it's a slow cultural change. Well-educated countries can still fall into extremism, which is driven by emotional and atavistic factors as well as economic and political ones, and can't simply be dispelled with doses of Rationality (tm). Arguably, the failure of rational utilitarianism to engage with this aspect of humanity and to simply dismiss everything t…

My intent was to describe the system (social media is a hyper-efficient anarchic consensus-based information exchange), and a root-cause for undesirable output...

There may not be a solution that preserves the open internet, if this system is fundamentally incompatible with social realities.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#233
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation" Wrong. Saying so is dangerously minimizing the problem.

Have you been following what’s going on in the UK with their anti-“hate” speech laws? Tweet something that someone decides is offensive to them, get a visit from the police? I’d say it’s a very rational concern that these regulations would be weaponized against “wrongthink”.

I'm not saying the UK's way is the way to go. But trying to handwave away the problem of toxicity with, "It's just people who can't handle' differing opinions" not right either.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#234
Algorithmic/centralized vs Human/community moderation is the largest divide between Facebook, Twitter, and Google vs. Reddit, HN, Twitch, Mastodon, etc.

I’m thoroughly in favor of the latter. Algorithms can be used as tools to aid human moderators, but context, discretion, and diversity are important. In the case of bad communities, you have a much more tractable problem in terms of tracking/banning/avoiding what goes on —- as both a platform and as a user.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think nextdoor does this model and it’s still notorious for trolling/internet fights.

I’m amazed at how much trolling there is on Nextdoor. It’s not hate speech level, and most posts seem pretty cordial but considering the community venue aspect I’m just floored at how reflexively shitty people can be the minute there’s a divergence of opinions.

Yeah, Nextdoor is astonishingly vile given the non-zero chance of actually running into one of your fellow members at the grocery store.

My hypothesis is that Nextdoor primarily appeals to those who already have that kind of territorial "they're all out to get us" mindset since territoriality is literally what the app is about. It's the angry "get off my lawn" old man of social networks and it attracts exactly those kinds of people. Mix in some Internet depersonalization effects and you get something pretty nasty.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#236
post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

Reddit and HN are both missing two key ingredients on the moderation side: Transparency and accountability.

There's nobody watching the watchmen, essentially. That leads to a lot of frustration, anger, mistrust, and abuse.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#237
post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

Reddit is not actually strong moderation. Forum communities with actual strong moderation, eg. Something Awful, ResetEra have near zero issues with hate speech, Nazis and other things that reddit has let fester.

Well, that's because reddit is simply a platform, right? reddit undeniably has tools to allow for strong moderation. see /r/AskHistorians for a perfect example of this.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation" Wrong. Saying so is dangerously minimizing the problem.

Dangerously minimizing? What's dangerous is a culture addicted to simulating political action by managing online comments. Instead if putting resources to making your local garden great, to mangle Nietzsche of Ecco Homo, people get worked up by actions they have no control over instead of working locally to change conditions where they could have an impact. And you lack imagination and historical hindsight if you thi…

"Dangerously minimizing?"

Yes. Pretending that the problem of toxicity is just people who can't handle differing opinions is to be willfully ignorant of the problem. As such, a reasonable conversation can not be had.

"And you lack imagination and historical hindsight if you think the concept of "toxicity" can only be wielded by whatever you consider to be the forces of light. So to speak."

Nowhere did I say that in the least.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#239
post #200
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its also impossible. You're not going to have a close conversation with a group of people when a little kid is jumping up and down and screaming for attention in public. Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. Either they run the show, or you do something about them, end of story.

> Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. This goes against decades of received wisdom: DNFTT, anyone? For what it's worth, I agree with you, and I always thought simply not feeding trolls was pointless: There's something similar to a broken window effect in terms of overall tone. If someone comes to a site, sees a lot of negative comments and general asshattery, they'll file that place away as "where…

I kind of took your first sentence and started replying to it by saying about what you said afterwards - I thought that was your main point! My typed reply:

> Do not feed the trolls only solves the problem in smaller communities, or at least only just holds off the effects of the troll (topics spinning out of control, pointless arguing, accusations and recriminations) until they can be moderated. Its not a solution for a community, and never has been.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#240
I'm an old BBSer. I was on message forums seeing the entire array of so-called problems of today, which people summarize as "toxicity." I saw the full gamut of what can happen, including court-ordered restraining orders, personal harassment in real life, fights. But I also saw communities of what were (in those days) teenagers and young adults (sometimes older adults) finding self-moderation through trial and error and experience.

We were anonymous in those days and no, it wasn't more toxic, it was less. I credit those days with teaching me to learn to write correctly, to learn a style of approach to the world which is a mix of rational and skeptical, and with being exposed to numerous philosophical and ethical viewpoints that I would NEVER have been exposed to in the actual toxic environment that I experienced as "high school in America."

Now, this was in the mid 90's. Fast forward to the Internet revolution, we start to see the beginnings of message forums online. Fast forward a little bit, we're shocked to find an extremely low level of intelligent engagement, and a high level of emotive hissy-fitting, anger and knee-jerking. Worse, there's a set of interests and focus areas that belong to the masses. My BBS friends and I quickly abandoned our years-long dedication to messaging. It was finito.

Because suddenly, a computer nerd niche was exposed to the masses, and the interests of the masses overwhelmed this niche, to the point that intelligent message forum discussion boards because extremely hard to find. RIP intelligent message forums (that I could uncover, anyway) circa early 2000's.

Now, to me Reddit is the pinnacle of that. I've never written a single item on Reddit but I've read hundreds of posts. And to me they are:

-- Very short, one or two sentence one-liners Me-too's, "this!", etc. Blanket dismissals. There's nothing inherent about anonymity or any other element of the media itself that leads to that.

-- Controlled by autocratic "mods" who delete or otherwise punish views that aren't held by them. The political ones are classic examples. Newsflash, guys, there's nothing inherent about politics that should lead to that, and it's not the medium that leads to that degree of censorship. Echo-chamber my butt - that's not an echo chamber, that's a top-down dictatorial type of dictatorship. And evil at that. An echo chamber is when people self-select (in my view) and bounce and reinforce each other's ideas.

-- Emotiveness. This is number 1. In any discussion, whether discussing a muscle pain in one subreddit, Trump in another subreddit, or altcoins in another, what you find are people view the message medium as a chance to express their feelings. And so when one person disagrees, it's almost an attack or a failure to acknowledge the other's feelings, if you look at this psychologically. But it's perceived as "toxic." What you say is toxic is a manifestation of people who are not USED to rational back-and-forths -- they didn't qualify for the debate team if you know what I mean -- and they think that it's about expressing personal feelings. Almost like they are VOTING on what is true and false.

Folks, I assert this: it's not the anonymous aspect. It's not "toxicity." There's no "cure." There's only people. And levels of education and intelligence (yes, I'm sorry, intelligence plays a role here.).

I was going to talk about Facebook but I deleted the paragraph as it's a whole other set of variables in addition to these.

If there's ANY cure it's education. Teach people what argumentation is. Ad hominems being the first thing they should learn is naughty. Next, a code of conduct for MODERATORS. If you have moderators who behave like the Stasi intercepting private correspondence and throwing out the bad ones, that should be number one on the hitlist.

It's about a, education on argument logic, b, ethics on what moderation is (and isn't). Again, my BBS peers learned this when we were 13-18, gradually.

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