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Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

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Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#191

Post by prepend »

ranie93 wrote: post #27
overcast wrote: post #2

The only way to detoxify the internet, is to get rid of the "social" aspect. Starting with gasp comments. My online experience has been that much better, since adding comment blockers to my browser.

Personally I'm guilty of often seeking out comments before or soon after viewing an article or video online. As social creatures I think its reasonable to want, even need, others opinions. The effects of receiving these opinions may not always be positive, but I think they are necessary. Pragmatically, comment sections can have bots, ads, instigators. I think there is a better solution than outright getting rid of on…

Similarly, I use comments as a quick screen to filter through the PR/targeted journalism of stories. Not perfect and will eventually stop working as media companies wise up.

Similarly, I will frequently check Wikipedia before the company/film/whatever. Flaws, but frequently better than official channels.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#192

Post by KirinDave »

InvisibleCities wrote: post #159
gdubs wrote: post #150

We tend to think we’re more in control of our behavior than we actually are. That is, our brains are operating from habit a large amount of the time, and the idea of the CEO brain consciously deciding our every action is largely an illusion. This is why emergency exit doors must open outwards. People have died in fires in theaters trying to push on doors that said “Pull”. The crash bar on an emergency exit door is wh…

>This is why emergency exit doors must open outwards. People have died in fires in theaters trying to push on doors that said “Pull”. The crash bar on an emergency exit door is what’s known in design as an affordance. Is this true? I always assumed it was because it's pretty much impossible to pull open a door when you are being crushed by people pressing against one another trying to escape.

It's the same sort of myth as "why are manhole covers round?" and there are lots of attributions for why that ignore history for a just-so story.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#193

Post by civility »

cpncrunch wrote: post #130
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

HN generally works very well. The echo chamber problem is due to allowing downvotes IMO. In my experience that simply leads to minority viewpoints being downvoted. Instead, downvotes should be removed, and people should be allowed to flag abusive comments.

On top of downvotes, you can say very toxic / abusive / condescending things and get away with it if you share the "correct" viewpoint, but unpopular views have to be exceptionally polite to avoid biased moderation. You can't bluntly refute or critique a questionable (but popular) argument without being accused of lacking civility...

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#194

Post by devinhelton »

losteric wrote: post #71
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values. Acceptable for entertainment, but inherently prone to misinformation, propaganda, and demagoguery. Education requires valuing subject matter ex…

"We really just need better public education"

I agree 100% as long as you put me, or people of my worldview, in charge of the curriculum and personnel.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#195

Post by Slansitartop »

mozumder wrote: post #114
Slansitartop wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a media business, they can be a lot more profitable with fewer high-quality users than hordes of low-quality toxic users. I see no evidence of that. > A fashion magazine only has 1 million subscribers, but can make $400 million/year in revenue, basically printing money. A fashion magazine doesn't outsource its content production to its subscribers.

> I see no evidence of that. I would encourage you to look at the evidence. > A fashion magazine doesn't outsource its content production to its subscribers. And?

>>> As a media business, they can be a lot more profitable with fewer high-quality users than hordes of low-quality toxic users.

>> I see no evidence of that.

> I would encourage you to look at the evidence.

I would encourage you to provide it.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#196

Post by nooron »

Balgair wrote: post #92
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

Relate 'karma' to the ability to post at all? More karma, more posting; less karma, less posting. Everyone starts every month/week/day with only so much, no roll-over per timeframe. Modify it so that 'popular' threads cost more to post in. You can give karma to others too via the upvote and take it away with a downvote, but still no roll-over. Troll/shill accounts would still get upped around en masse , but less so a…

The NRA has its own social network where users must perform certain tasks before the user can post or comment. You have to tweet at your legislator or share things to your personal Facebook in order to show fealty to the community, in order to get enough karma to talk to others in it.

If you're curious: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-01/the-nra-h...

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#197

Post by oreo81 »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #173
randyrand wrote: post #80

Does detoxify mean getting rid of mean speech?

There was a post on /r/The_Donald not long ago calling for shooting all refuges in the US on sight. Do you feel that is just "mean speech"?

I saw that exact post on r/sandersforpresident!

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#198

Post by belltaco »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #120
jasonmaydie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real solution is making blatant lies and misinformation illegal.

And who determines what's true and what's not?

At the risk of excessive red tape, the judicial system has been doing a reasonable job of determining facts in most modern countries.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#199

Post by mancerayder »

cpncrunch wrote: post #130
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

HN generally works very well. The echo chamber problem is due to allowing downvotes IMO. In my experience that simply leads to minority viewpoints being downvoted. Instead, downvotes should be removed, and people should be allowed to flag abusive comments.

I think the Hackernews' "echo-chamber-ness" is extremely exaggerated. It only feels like that if you're in the minority viewpoint in a thread (which happens to me, too). However, it's not echo-chambery if dissident viewpoints live side-by-side dominant viewpoints, even if the latter are 80% of the thread replies and upvotes.

An echo chamber is arguably more when we actively suppress dissident viewpoints. Reddit is infamous for moderators doing that simply by deleting comments under some pretext of 'spirit of the subreddit' or such. With Facebook there's a first-and-last-name-and-picture-visible shaming that can be scary and damaging, repulsing the opposite viewpoints. At a more extreme, you can help foster an echo chamber by organizing a large group of people to scream and picket and threaten a speaker that has the wrong views, reminding all the others of what happens.

HN to me is an oasis. Even if I get downvoted when I have a minority view. I still feel as if intelligent arguments are considered.

With Reddit, how many intelligent comments are there? The English grammar alone is awful, full of shortcuts, cliches and new millennial-speak. But worse: the responses are short. One-liners. And even worse: argumentation is ad-hominem and emotive.

In summary, I think Reddit is about emotional expression, and HN is about (an attempt of) rigor and rationality.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#200

Post by msla »

taurath wrote: post #98
dieterrams wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to get everyone to not be bothered by trolls is a massive and neverending undertaking.

Its also impossible. You're not going to have a close conversation with a group of people when a little kid is jumping up and down and screaming for attention in public. Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. Either they run the show, or you do something about them, end of story.

> Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys.

This goes against decades of received wisdom: DNFTT, anyone?

For what it's worth, I agree with you, and I always thought simply not feeding trolls was pointless: There's something similar to a broken window effect in terms of overall tone. If someone comes to a site, sees a lot of negative comments and general asshattery, they'll file that place away as "where the asshats are" even if those comments are being studiously ignored by the regulars. That means the only ones who want to comment there will be the ones who want to act like what they see around them: asshat trolls.

I also think that ignoring them until they go away is a bad strategy: Even if you ignore one or two of them successfully, there's dozens if not hundreds of them waiting to join. You can't outwait them all without the community degenerating due to the broken window effect I mentioned above.

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