Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#201

Post by Klathmon » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #157

Pxtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An echo chamber is the only real option. Computers are unaware of concepts of good or evil, so at best a moderation algorithm can do is enforce a certain viewpoint. The question is what viewpoint? The viewpoint of the consensus of users, or the viewpoint of the community leadership?

I don't think moderation should be done by algorithm, as soon as you give the task back to humans you're much more capable of shades of gray and thoughtful, real moderation. Humans have been moderating public spaces for thousands of years, we're more than up to the task if a little bit of care is put into the implementation.

But humans are VERY very slow at this. Even our world-class moderation systems (the legal system in many countries) is excruciatingly slow, often taking months or years for a single decision.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#202

Post by prepend » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

sincerely wrote: post #132

UrukParthian wrote: post #119

Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation Why are people so willing to embrace Orwellian doublethink? My prediction is that such a sword will do decapitate undeserving people of all political aisles.

The article is largely about removing flagrantly racist content (the subreddits they listed as examples were like r/KKK and r/CoonTown) and various illegal content like bestiality videos. It seems disingenuous to classify these as simply "different political orientation".

As much I disagree with racists, I believe that a healthy society must allow them to speak.

I tried to find a quote from Dershowitz’s book on defending Nazis but gave up due to paywall.

Toxic is not an objective measure for speech. But like in real life, toxicity depends on the dose. Life doesn’t eliminate toxins, it reduces them to manageable levels (or dies).

There’s also the practical effect that banning is irreversible. Toxicity is not terminal, but banning doesn’t allow for redemption.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#203

Post by CaptSpify » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

shaki-dora wrote: post #134

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economic incentives are misaligned. Fake news helps with page views and other KPI. If there was an actual enforcable cost associated with misrepresenting the truth, we'd see a slowdown in fake news. The restoration of the Fairness Doctrine would also help stymie some of the biggest promulgators like Fox News * * you can search for "fox news viewers misinformed" and encounter studies and results like http://public…

The analogy of food nicely shows that some sort of race-to-the-bottom does not necessarily occur: there’s still organic or other high quality fresh food even though McDonald’s has been around for a while. Similarily, there are still excellent news sources. The Economist is often cited in these discussions, and the New York Times is also vigilant in their reporting and the correction of errors when they occur[0]. What…

At the same time, I feel like we are seeing a breakdown of trust in institutions because of actual mistakes that, in years past, would have gone unnoticed.

Although this distrust does have negative impacts to our society, I view this distrust as an overall good thing.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#204

Post by kirkules » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

ScipioAfricanus wrote: post #26

salvar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the old "We just need to change human behaviour" solution. Yeah, that would definitely work if it worked.

No one needs to change anything. The internet existed for years without this being an issue. If you encounter someone on the internet who is annoying you, most platforms give you the option to block them. You do that, then move on with your life. It's not hard.

The internet did not exist in its present form, extent of influence, flexibility, etc., without this being an issue for any length of time. Don't lie to yourself.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#205

Post by dandersh » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:08 PM UTC

cup-of-tea wrote: post #155

I quit reddit for good on Saturday. There are two major problems with it: - Downvoting creates echo chambers, - No accountability for moderators. I think the downvoting should be removed completely. Downvoting is basically giving people the power of a mini-censor and the people love it. Subreddits can be completely censored by moderators and there's no way to know this is happening. Maybe reddit can develop a way to…

Completely agree about downvoting. It really does nothing for me as a user, as I am able to reply to something if I feel strongly enough about it. A great way to go about detoxifying social media is to limit negative interactions as much as possible.

Upvoting, on the other hand is valuable as it helps cut through the noise. A great example was the thread awhile back about WhatsApp encryption where the first comment was from Moxie.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#206

Post by saas_co_de » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

> Real identities

Real real identities (i.e. government issued digital id) have never been done. I am sure they will come eventually. The political process is just very slow compared to the pace of technology.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#207

Post by s73v3r_ » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

overcast wrote: post #14

golergka wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a comment though.

HN doesn't allow such negativity though. Reddit flourishes on it.

I would encourage you to read any thread on harassment or the treatment of women and marginalized people in the tech industry and then revisit that thought.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#208

Post by codinghorror » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

It is wildly inaccurate to call HN or Reddit “strong moderation” — the tooling alone is abysmally bad, plus Reddit can’t put the “post anything you want as long as it is not literally illegal” genie back in the bottle so easily after a decade.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#209

Post by cup-of-tea » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #188

cup-of-tea wrote: post #155

I quit reddit for good on Saturday. There are two major problems with it: - Downvoting creates echo chambers, - No accountability for moderators. I think the downvoting should be removed completely. Downvoting is basically giving people the power of a mini-censor and the people love it. Subreddits can be completely censored by moderators and there's no way to know this is happening. Maybe reddit can develop a way to…

How do you filter out user sentiment without downvotes? I think there are flaws in downvoting, but they are less than systems with only upvote (eg Facebook). Upvote only encourage extreme views that attract attention because if 5% like and 95% dislike (theoretical) this is ranked higher than 4% and 0% dislike. What we really need is a score that is like as percentage of views that will be more meaningful. Mixing in s…

I've never actually used Facebook so I haven't seen the effects of only upvoting. But up/downvoting is not meant to signal agreement or disagreement anyway. It's meant to signal whether it's a useful post or not. But people treat it as the former which is why it creates echo chambers. I think the Facebook "upvote" is meant to signal agreement. Does it also make the post go to the top?

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#210

Post by UrukParthian » Mon, Mar 12, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #154

UrukParthian wrote: post #119

Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation Why are people so willing to embrace Orwellian doublethink? My prediction is that such a sword will do decapitate undeserving people of all political aisles.

"Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation" Wrong. Saying so is dangerously minimizing the problem.

Dangerously minimizing? What's dangerous is a culture addicted to simulating political action by managing online comments. Instead if putting resources to making your local garden great, to mangle Nietzsche of Ecco Homo, people get worked up by actions they have no control over instead of working locally to change conditions where they could have an impact.

And you lack imagination and historical hindsight if you think the concept of "toxicity" can only be wielded by whatever you consider to be the forces of light. So to speak.