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Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

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Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#151

Post by jk47msp »

ronzensci wrote: post #127
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

There is a fundamental approach that has not been tried as yet - Incentives The real-world has that figured out long ago. If you find something that is truly useful & timely, you would be willing to pay real money for it. Google Answers (answers.google.com) had tried an approach wherein a price can be put on a question and any legit reply which answers that q can claim it. 'Reputation' definitely still plays a role i…

Reputation will mean different things to different people.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#152

Post by knodi123 »

losteric wrote: post #71
_m8fo wrote: post #46

So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values. Acceptable for entertainment, but inherently prone to misinformation, propaganda, and demagoguery. Education requires valuing subject matter ex…

> .../Reddit/... promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values

Comparing the experience in a niche subreddit, vs. a default subreddit, it's clear that the real problem is allowing causals in. If people have to go out of their way to participate, you wind up with only the ones who care to do so. And they have, in their reputation, something they don't want to lose.

But if people are allowed to participate by default, you get the enormous masses of people who, collectively, by virtue of their shifting roster, are immune to moderation. And you get people who set out that morning to share as many opinions as possible, instead of the people who set out to participate in that community exclusively.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#153

Post by rexpop »

aje403 wrote: post #141

Most people are idiots. Consider that half of the population (hypothetically) has less than a 100 IQ score. Idiots did different things together 100 years ago and, 1000 years before that, groups of idiots would get together to raid and rape and pillage. They still do that in other places in the world. Now they come onto the internet to send hateful things and porn to one another. Most of the biggest idiots do not go…

The human brain is a fantastic computer. Most people are geniuses, constantly crunching stochastic phenomenal trajectories, and navigating ever-changing real and virtual terrains. The problem isn't how smart we are, but on what we focus.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#154

Post by s73v3r_ »

UrukParthian wrote: post #119

Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation Why are people so willing to embrace Orwellian doublethink? My prediction is that such a sword will do decapitate undeserving people of all political aisles.

"Toxic statements = statements from a different political orientation"

Wrong. Saying so is dangerously minimizing the problem.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#155

Post by cup-of-tea »

I quit reddit for good on Saturday. There are two major problems with it:

- Downvoting creates echo chambers,

- No accountability for moderators.

I think the downvoting should be removed completely. Downvoting is basically giving people the power of a mini-censor and the people love it.

Subreddits can be completely censored by moderators and there's no way to know this is happening. Maybe reddit can develop a way to judge the behaviour of the moderators. Like showing what posts they removed, for example.

I've been part of plenty of internet communities that don't become like this. Even completely public forums and IRC channels. I guess HN isn't as bad as reddit because we have an above-average intelligence crowd, but there are some opinions I am careful not to mention here as well.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#156

Post by majos »

panarky wrote: post #37

> Struggle to Detoxify the Internet The internet isn't toxic. It's the people who are toxic. These people are just as noxious in real life even if some of them hide it when their identities are known. Can anything be done to detoxify the people, or do we just treat them like spam and filter them out? And what happens next when millions of rabid voices are suppressed? The toxic people don't cease to exist, we just won…

> It's the people who are toxic.

I half-agree with this. The internet doesn't make a genuinely kind and empathetic person into a troll. But I think it does amplify certain bad little impulses that are latent in pretty much everybody -- the temptation of quick and cutting putdowns, mob and tribal mentality, lobbing rhetorical bombs then ignoring the consequences...

There is a qualitative difference between a back-and-forth on Twitter (or even HN) and a back-and-forth in real life. There's way more trust in good faith in the latter.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#157

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

Pxtl wrote: post #128
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your suggestion would lead to an echo chamber. Take a look at metafilter and how samey they've gotten. One thing to remember is that even small barriers implicity give mods much more power.

An echo chamber is the only real option. Computers are unaware of concepts of good or evil, so at best a moderation algorithm can do is enforce a certain viewpoint. The question is what viewpoint? The viewpoint of the consensus of users, or the viewpoint of the community leadership?

I don't think moderation should be done by algorithm, as soon as you give the task back to humans you're much more capable of shades of gray and thoughtful, real moderation. Humans have been moderating public spaces for thousands of years, we're more than up to the task if a little bit of care is put into the implementation.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#158

Post by wufufufu »

aje403 wrote: post #141

Most people are idiots. Consider that half of the population (hypothetically) has less than a 100 IQ score. Idiots did different things together 100 years ago and, 1000 years before that, groups of idiots would get together to raid and rape and pillage. They still do that in other places in the world. Now they come onto the internet to send hateful things and porn to one another. Most of the biggest idiots do not go…

"Since the early 20th century, raw scores on IQ tests have increased in most parts of the world. When a new version of an IQ test is normed, the standard scoring is set so performance at the population median results in a score of IQ 100. The phenomenon of rising raw score performance means if test-takers are scored by a constant standard scoring rule, IQ test scores have been rising at an average rate of around three IQ points per decade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

You assume too much about half of the human population.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#159

Post by InvisibleCities »

gdubs wrote: post #150

We tend to think we’re more in control of our behavior than we actually are. That is, our brains are operating from habit a large amount of the time, and the idea of the CEO brain consciously deciding our every action is largely an illusion. This is why emergency exit doors must open outwards. People have died in fires in theaters trying to push on doors that said “Pull”. The crash bar on an emergency exit door is wh…

>This is why emergency exit doors must open outwards. People have died in fires in theaters trying to push on doors that said “Pull”. The crash bar on an emergency exit door is what’s known in design as an affordance.

Is this true? I always assumed it was because it's pretty much impossible to pull open a door when you are being crushed by people pressing against one another trying to escape.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#160

Post by prepend »

siegecraft wrote: post #148

This problem is easy to solve: give users the tools to do their own filtering. But services like to pretend that it's a hard problem because they don't want to actually cede that control to their users. The whole point of controlling the communication networks is to control what and how people say and hear.

It’s surprising how much social media bullshits on this issue. RSS had the standard and solution a decade ago.

Being able to filter even by simple regex would be so much better than Facebook/Google’s “algorithm.” But it would allow us to filter out ads.

It would also allow for community-driven white/black lists.

But again, wouldn’t allow Coke and HBO to make you look at stuff.

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