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The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

mosaicscience.com

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Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#111

Post by stochastic_monk »

andai wrote: post #104
stochastic_monk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a childhood friend who now has schizophrenia. He is afraid of medication, so he currently just stays on cannabis all the time in a state where it’s legal. (He has been medicated before, but his paranoia won’t let him now.) He’s more stable, and while he does still believe his hallucinations/delusions of persecution, he is able to handle them better. I wonder how psilocybin would treat him. I know psychosis is…

Have you seen him before and after smoking up? Anecdotally (my own eyes) cannabis does not improve schizophrenia. Interestingly, administering enough THC to a healthy adult will produce schizophrenia and psychosis type symptoms, while administering CBD to a psychotic person was found in one study to work as well as first-line antipsychotics (and with fewer side-effects). Unfortunately almost all modern cannabis hybri…

I haven't seen him in a very long time. It doesn't treat the psychosis, as I mentioned, but it seems to help the anxiety and distress that it causes.

I don't know what balance of THC/CBD he chooses to consume. I think that if he smokes enough of anything besides THC-only strains, he should get some benefit from it. I should give him a call and inquire sometime. (I live on the opposite coast.)

I know that one can buy high-CBD strains in states where it's legal, and I would hope that he does. It's also possible that tolerance for the different psychoactives changes at different rates. If that's the case, he might have developed a tolerance to the THC faster than CBD. I have no empirical evidence behind this claim, but I just know he's doing okay. Or at least more so than he had been.

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#112

Post by uhhyeahdude »

_0w8t wrote: post #82
uhhyeahdude wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I haven't thought about that GABA rebound in ages. I quit drinking a long time ago, although I had to do it a few times. This is just another data point, but I too remember "increased vigor/urgency" from acute sleep deprivation prior to drinking habitually. I have maintained up to a year on the same food schedule as you describe, and it was nice in a lot of ways. I don't know if I'll ever be quite that lean agai…

I am curious when anxiety happened in your case? For me if I fast for few days the second night (like 28-30 hours without food) is sleepless due to anxiety.

Well, I haven't intentionally tried to do fasting beyond the 18-20 hour mark during chronic IF. The afternoons could be tough on the second day for me. Actually it forced me to find a nice meditation spot where I could spend my lunch calming down and attending to my focus. I was probably a much better co-worker on sunny days. Oh, I should mention that it would have been really easy to just work through lunch given I had higher energy and focus levels. Eventually though, a walk or something active mid-day became essential if I didn't want to end my days in robo-mode.

Evenings were always easier for me on the tail end of the IF routine; I sometimes enjoy cooking; I had an excuse to plenty of whatever sounded good, and when you have a four hour window to eat, food tastes so much better its shocking.

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#113

Post by Synaesthesia »

geoka9 wrote: post #96

Haven't read the article yet, but it sounds grim, I don't think it can be good for me. Instead of forced sleep deprivation, try this for a week: intermittent fasting and calorie restriction, good nutrition (veggies, nuts, olive oil, eggs, etc.), no drinking (at all), going to bed early (like 10 pm), waking up early (at dawn in the summer at 4 am would be perfect), but naturally, without an alarm clock. Doing this, yo…

“Sleep deprivation really has opposite effects in healthy people and those with depression,” says Benedetti. If you’re healthy and you don’t sleep, you’ll feel in a bad mood. But if you’re depressed, it can prompt an immediate improvement in mood, and in cognitive abilities.”

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#114

Post by Synaesthesia »

yani wrote: post #56

My personal experience is exactly the opposite. Lack of sleep induces depression. This is also supported by many studies. I recommend this read http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/matters/conseque...

In the article it says:

“Sleep deprivation really has opposite effects in healthy people and those with depression,” says Benedetti. If you’re healthy and you don’t sleep, you’ll feel in a bad mood. But if you’re depressed, it can prompt an immediate improvement in mood, and in cognitive abilities.”

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#115

Post by amelius »

jimnotgym wrote: post #94
jimnotgym wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a a web app with voting would be a useful thing. In the UK mental health services have almost disappeared, especially for those who are not extreme. Maybe a list of things to try yourself is useful?

Well this got the better of me, there is now a list on Github https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression Please PR if you want to comment. I'll do a ShowHN once there is more on it

This is a great initiative!

Some quick ideas. Perhaps you can mention what should determine the order in the list. For example, every experiment has:

- A success rate.

- An average time to noticeable improvement

- An average time to recovery.

- Risk and severity of side effects.

- Cost.

- Difficulty.

- More?

So for example, checking for nutritional deficiencies (very important) or other tests can be near the top of the list (little side effects, low cost, not difficult, etc). But psychotherapy should be near the bottom (high cost, difficult, long recovery time, etc.)

Perhaps split according to cure/prevention/coping strategy. (For example SSRIs are in many cases a coping strategy and not a cure).

Again, great work!

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#116

Post by dimal »

mjfl wrote: post #8

So the cure for depression is to take hallucinogens like ketamine or deliberately deprive yourself of sleep? It's like making yourself happier by making yourself less sharp. Perhaps, then, one is depressed because one is rational - because there are real, serious problems with life that need to be dealt with, not escaped. The recent "cures" sound almost Huxley-an.

Ketamine doesn’t make you happy and it doesn’t make you less sharp (except for the short period of time when you’re under the influence). I just did it for the third time this week and the effect is not what you describe. It is not an escape. I’m able to think more clearly and be _more_ rational because I don’t have the heavy weight of depression clouding my mind. I feel like ketamine reboots my mind. It pulls me out of the ruminative loop that seems to be the root of my depression and lets me restart life with a clean slate. It allows me to see things more clearly and deal with the real issues causing my depression.

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#117

Post by mjfl »

dimal wrote: post #116
mjfl wrote: post #8

So the cure for depression is to take hallucinogens like ketamine or deliberately deprive yourself of sleep? It's like making yourself happier by making yourself less sharp. Perhaps, then, one is depressed because one is rational - because there are real, serious problems with life that need to be dealt with, not escaped. The recent "cures" sound almost Huxley-an.

Ketamine doesn’t make you happy and it doesn’t make you less sharp (except for the short period of time when you’re under the influence). I just did it for the third time this week and the effect is not what you describe. It is not an escape. I’m able to think more clearly and be _more_ rational because I don’t have the heavy weight of depression clouding my mind. I feel like ketamine reboots my mind. It pulls me out…

How do you know you're not hallucinating that your mind is clearer?

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#118

Post by alangpierce »

amelius wrote: post #18

Ok, so this is one possible thing to try when one has depression. Who is keeping a list of all things to try, and where does this experiment fit in that list?

I would love a well-researched list like that. My personal prioritized list is: therapy, medication, close friendships, meditation, journalling, reading books on psychology, getting enough sleep, exercise. (I guess that's ordered from most to least promising, not necessarily order of things to try.) But it's mostly just intuition from my own experiences, not scientific.

My gut reaction is that sleep deprivation is worth trying, but probably near the bottom of the list. I've found that sleep deprivation has a strong correlation with depression for me. But different things work for different people.

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#119

Post by b0rsuk »

I noticed this myself a long time ago. I have major anxiety, stress and depression problems(the last one I mostly fixed).

When I stay up very late, or lose most of a night's sleep, I no longer care. I'm very resistant to stress. The downside, aside from numerous all other long term negatives of sleep deprivation, is that I can't focus on anything moderately complicated and take loong to get anything done. It's like time passes faster. And it's really hard to make decisions.

Re: The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation

#120

Post by b0rsuk »

uhhyeahdude wrote: post #17

How very odd for me to find this on HN this evening. I'm on "day 2" of my once a week sleep fast, which means things are a bit surreal to begin with. For each of the last seven weeks, I stay awake from Thursday morning until my "regular" bedtime hour Friday evening. I do this because it actually seems to be an effective way to avoid falling into a hole of anhedonia and "stuck-ness." I am hip to many of the cognitive…

I had major depression for a couple of years and here's how I eventually got out of it: 1) regular exercise. Start small, you're not supposed to break records. But it's very important to do it regularly. You can start with one exercise, like cycling or pushups, and then in later weeks or months add more once you feel you got the hang of it. Also, I think aerobic exercises on fresh air like cycling, jogging or even going for a walk work best. 2) Go for a walk pretty often. Just to see a changing landscape and not the same 4 walls all the time. 3) Friends. Meet them with some regularity. If you don't have, meet people over a hobby and you will eventually make some friends. Friendly faces are nice. 4) Music - especially new and nice - works VERY well for me, but then again I'm sensitive to music and some arts. 5) Herbal pills for depression - hypericum. Supposedly as good as many synthetic meds, but much fewer side effects. Note you want either pills, alcohol or oil extract. The substance that deals with depression and stress (hypericine?) is not water solluble. So common teas don't work. Watch out for photosensitivity (you might get burns or other skin problems from being exposed to sun). 6) Vitamin D, at least 2000IU a day.

Try these things. It really helps, especially once you're used to some exercise. Now I still have anxiety and low stress resistance, but I can act and get stuff accomplished. Also, people say getting a cat or dog is a big help too (I haven't tried it).

Anhedonia - lack of ability to feel pleasure - in my case comes largely from the habit of suppressing emotions. I'm working on it.

Also, I practice meditation (for stress, memory and concentration), 1-2x a day for 15 minutes. I'm not sure how much it helps, but I'll take every help I can get NOT to fall into this black pit again.

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