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Coinbase Index Fund

blog.coinbase.com

231–240 of 346 posts

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#231
post #3

Interesting. The fund creates another potential source of revenue for them and at the same time, the more people that invest in it, the higher it's likely to go. Why would anyone choose to invest in a fund that is basically the same as investing in the 4 currencies they currently support directly (without fees or limitations on trading)?

I don't think that's how an index works.

From the Coinbase literature:

"The index level for CBI is calculated by dividing the sum of the current USD market capitalizations of all constituent assets by the Divisor and multiplying the result by 100."

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#232
post #103

For anyone wondering why this is better than just buying the coins yourself, here are some reasons: 1. Non-technical investors don't know which coins to buy. There are some genuinely good coins, and lots of scams, and they look pretty much identical to the untrained eye. 2. Non-technical investors don't know how to store coins safely. Words like "cold wallet" and "Trezor" don't mean anything to them. Even if they wan…

Disagree with all 4 of these: 1) They are publishing which coins are held by the index, so the choice of coins is being given away for free, not just to investors. 2) Coinbase's main product is a SaaS account that lets you buy the same coins without knowing how to manage a wallet - so you can implement the index and skip the management fee using an account with them. 3) Controlling administrative access to an account…

1. I'll mostly concede this one. You're right that investors can look at this index and mirror it, but any investor who does this should be thankful that Coinbase created this fund and gave them something to mirror!

2. Coinbase's main product lets you buy the coins, but storing them safely is another matter. Just wait until c0inbase.com sets up a duplicate site and buys Google ads for "coinbase" so it shows up above the real site in search results. Two-factor auth won't help because the fake site will just prompt you for the 2FA and immediately use it to log into your account on the real site. This isn't a hypothetical -- things like this happen all the time and target all of the most popular online bitcoin wallets.

The difference with an index is that there's no "withdraw crypto" button. Even if your account is hacked, the worst they can do is try to force you to sell your position -- and even that could probably be rolled back when you get in touch with Coinbase. The hacker couldn't take your money because adding a new bank account for withdrawal is slow and produces a bunch of emails to you. And even if they did add a new bank account and withdraw, that would generate a paper trail that could be used to undo the bank transfer or prosecute the thieves.

Setting up bank accounts with a fake identity is much harder than creating a new bitcoin wallet address to withdraw your stolen coins to.

3. Again, the lack of a "withdraw crypto" button makes all the difference. If that button exists, business partners will always be eyeing each other with suspicion, wondering if one of them is going to steal the coins and claim that a hacker did it. If it doesn't, there is no easy way for one partner to screw the others. The worst he could do is add his personal bank account and try to withdraw to it. Even if he succeeds, that will leave a huge paper trail. The other partners will know who did it and he'll soon discover that the FBI frowns on such things.

4. You're right that you don't avoid the taxation burden, but there is still a difference. First, the fund is more likely to have tax experts who can figure out how to minimize the tax burden from rebalancing. They'll be aware of tricks like tax loss harvesting that a random investor would find burdensome to implement even if they knew about them. Second, as an investor, getting a 1099 from an index fund makes my life simple because I can just copy a few numbers into TurboTax and be done. If I've been running and rebalancing my own portfolio, I instead have to download the year's worth of trade data and fill out IRS form 8949 with a list of all trades.

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#233
This just strikes me as really shady - not because I have any reason to believe that you're not going to get what they're selling you, but that a lot of non-experts in financial products are familiar with the idea of an index fund as a (relatively) safe and responsible long-term investment, when this is clearly neither of those things.

Coinbase even describe this as an investment in their description.

This has more in common with buying a bunch of lottery tickets in a syndicate for a draw that might not even happen. I wish we'd be more responsible than to call buying cryptocurrency investing. We know what it is. It is not this.

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#234
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Coinbase is charging a 2% fee for what amounts to automating a max of 4 transactions a year. I came up with some more they do for 2%/y: * Buy more coins when their fund expands * Secure the shit out of those private keys

Besides the fact that it should cost nothing like 2% of AUM / year, securing the private keys pays for itself when they claim every fork/spin-off coin that distributes based on bitcoin blockchain.

Are you saying coinage handling bcc in a sane manner is the exception, not the rule? Are there any other forks that have enough value/liquidity that they should be "given back" to the buyers?

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#235
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to buy this Coinbase index fund, just do this: 1. Log into Coinbase 2. Buy [BTC, ETH, BCC, LTC] with [62%, 27%, 7%, 4%] weights 3. Check back in one year and rebalance That's it! As an added bonus, you just avoided 2% fees and can "redeem" anytime.

I'm not sure this is such good advice. It means you're guaranteed to miss out on high appreciation of anything but the largest coins. That's all well and good for a less volatile scenario like the stock market where the top20 is pretty well correlated with the top2000. But given the volatility of digital assets, i would worry that this strategy leaves more on the table.

Note that I conditioned the advice with "if you want to buy this Coinbase index fund." The fund only has those 4 coins.

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>since they [Coinbase] are not a neutral player Why do you say this? (The part I added in bracket part is unambiguous in your sentence.) Coinbase doesn't have its own coin, for example. (That is the main thing that I would think would make someone "not neutral".) Can you explain your thinking, or tell me what facts I'm missing?

The people choosing which coins to include and how to weight them have tremendous power. They, and their buddies, will be tempted to (a) re-constitute the index to favour assets they own or (b) buy and sell ahead of re-constitution using insider information. “Painting the tape” is a problem with proper indices; here, someone on the GDAX side could conceivably just mess with the records.

> someone on the GDAX side could conceivably just mess with the records.

... On the blockchain?

I suppose you mean the pointers to which users controls what, in the internal db? Ie: straight up fraud. I'm not convinced having access to a large order lists doesn't already open the door to insider trading?

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#238
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people choosing which coins to include and how to weight them have tremendous power. They, and their buddies, will be tempted to (a) re-constitute the index to favour assets they own or (b) buy and sell ahead of re-constitution using insider information. “Painting the tape” is a problem with proper indices; here, someone on the GDAX side could conceivably just mess with the records.

> someone on the GDAX side could conceivably just mess with the records. ... On the blockchain? I suppose you mean the pointers to which users controls what, in the internal db? Ie: straight up fraud. I'm not convinced having access to a large order lists doesn't already open the door to insider trading?

> ... On the blockchain?

The index is market capitalization weighted. "The market capitalization of each constituent asset is calculated as the price of the asset multiplied by the supply of the asset" [1], where the "price for each constituent asset is the last trade price on the GDAX USD order book" (2.6).

The market capitalization, and thus weighting schema, is an entirely internal product of Coinbase's data.

> I'm not convinced having access to a large order lists doesn't already open the door to insider trading?

Currently, an insider could (a) give their orders better execution than the market or (b) foment a spike/crash by "painting the tape". This is risky and leaves a paper trail.

"The Coinbase Index Committee consists of one member representing Coinbase, and two unaffiliated independent members who have experience in index creation and oversight" (7.4). Those people are powerful. They can take economically-significant actions based on their subjective determinations. Convincing one of them to (a) tell you how they're rebalancing or what assets they're adding/removing when or (b) rebalance in a way that helps your portfolio can be done entirely over a glass of beer. Still risky and illegal. But less detectable than before.

This structure of incentives (small group of subjective decision makers operating on the basis of internal data) historically fails. (See the Libor scandals [2], where we only nailed those involved because they coördinated over instant messages.) Even if the first batch of three are honest, all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the bunch.

[1] https://am.coinbase.com/documents/cbi-methodology.pdf § 2.4

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor_scandal

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#239
This is a terrible deal. A 2% annual fee is a hedge-fund-esque fee. For 2% I'd expect an actively managed fund that gets in on ICO presales, carefully vets teams/technologies behind new coins and gets in early, has a strategy for hedging risk, etc. etc.

Instead you get a passively managed fund with FOUR assets that are all tightly correlated with each other (they all crash at the same time), that is only rebalanced once a year, and offers no tax benefits. Tax loss harvesting, for example, is not possible - there are only 4 assets to choose from!

You could replicate this yourself in a few minutes, and you wouldn't need a script.

Re: Coinbase Index Fund

#240

I have attempted to duplicate this index fund manually by purchasing the top 25 cryptocurrencies (market-cap weighted) over the past year or so. I'll say that it was hardly worth the enormous work involved, and these index funds cannot come soon enough to non-accredited investors. In some cases it's not possible to do perfectly alone: NEO has a minimum unit of 1 coin, and so if you wanted it to not be overweighted, y…

I had the same problems with re-balancing my own portfolio and ended up creating a trading bot that automatically diversifies my investment portfolio across the top 20 coins by market cap (10% capped). It is heavily inspired by the crypto20 whitepaper. For anyone that is interested, you can find the project here: www.hodlbot.io I'm about 1-2 weeks from the MVP launch. Only the top 20 coins by market cap fund will be…

Looks cool, can't wait for the early access!
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