How can families afford children? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can families afford children?

#51

Post by garrettdc » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

fredmorcos wrote: post #38

aceon48 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is you both sound like intelligent, upstanding members of society, and are rationally limiting your sadly expensive kids. Meanwhile, the dredges of society have multiple kids, Bc they actually make money from them with their subsidized housing and other benefits they pick up having more kids. And then you factor in “undocumented” immigrants, who also seem to roll in with way more than 2 kids, and your t…

I just think it's the opposite. Those without constant distractions and expenses end up being more productive and richer.

I believe the poster above was mentioning more those that are below median income or certainly those closer to poverty levels. There are a lot of benefit programs that take number of dependents into account so if you income is remaining the same, then increasing the number of children you have increases the benefit amount you receive. I don't think you can draw a causal relationship between benefits provided (at least for many families) and increased children, but there are certain people that do know this and exploit it regularly (source: watching an in-law do it ATM).

Re: How can families afford children?

#52

Post by jl6 » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #32

There is another way to look at children, which is from the societal level. New humans are still the most important inputs to human society. As societies become more specialized and productive, the powers and burdens of new humans go up. Thus, richer societies need fewer people, but each person needs to be more specialized and capable. And inversely, a society that is not producing new humans who are more specialized…

I’m not going to disagree with your overall thesis, but there is something I find oppressive about the idea that society manages 75% of your life, rather than managing your own life during adulthood.

Re: How can families afford children?

#53

Post by sbov » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:15 PM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #45

sbov wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most of this comes from the childless. Most parents seem to understand, but people without kids expect you to transform into superwoman/man.

Strange, I feel like it's the opposite. I, as a childless adult, couldn't care less how my friend raises her kid, just as long as she isn't abusive. It's probably because I haven't spent any time learning the ins-and-outs about raising a child, so I don't have a strong opinion either way. But if anything, my friend has felt internal pressure on decisions she makes with her child via the opinions of other parents. Thi…

True, unfortunately many mothers have latched on to breastfeeding and "natural birth" as a way to feel superior to other mothers. We had to go through a lot of that during our first, including people working in the hospital. One worker even called formula poison.

Re: How can families afford children?

#54

Post by agensaequivocum » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

ppeetteerr wrote: post #12

cwbrandsma wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 5 kids. As you say, there are a lot of things we don't do. There are not individual sports that we rush one kid to and then another for different kid. Often we pick full family activities, like swimming (or swim team) where 2-3 kids can all participate together, and the other kids can still have fun. We also don't live in a high cost-of-living area, so housing costs are [somewhat] low. Also child care, we made…

Curious why you wanted 5 kids. Seems like a large number these days.

It's not really that many, it only seems so because of the negative attitude in popular culture towards large families. I know many families with 7-14 children. And so far, I have one but I foresee many more in the future and I'm really looking forward to them.

Re: How can families afford children?

#55

Post by jeffreyrogers » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #49

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do, which explains a lot of why men work more after having children than women do. Plus, women obviously invest more in having children than men do.

Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation? And I have no problem with people getting divorced. Divorce rates are a ridiculous standard to rely on because it is based on moral principles. We make it really easy for people to…

> Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation?

I'm not sure. A large part of it could definitely be that men don't know how to act in such a situation since it's not a family format that society has had to deal with before.

The changes you're advocating for are all pretty radical (I don't mean this is a bad way necessarily) and I'd be worried that they may have unintended or unplanned for consequences. I don't think it's a given that men can raise children as well as women can.

With regards to divorce. I think it's pretty clear that divorce is harmful when children are involved. The best thing for kids is to have two parents in a healthy marriage. Obviously this isn't always possible, but I think it should be the goal.

Re: How can families afford children?

#56

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #48

ppeetteerr wrote: post #9

Maybe the Norwegian model/Canadian model is a good example (not that it's increasing fertility, but it's improving affordability). We have: - Subsidized daycare - Subsidized education - 1.5 year maternity leave - Subsidies for families with children under a certain income bracket It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

Subsidized by whom? Norway is rich off oil and gas money. With greater distribution of capital (not income, that's just more wage slavery), we could likely not only afford kids more, but also support social relations that make rearing kids easier. Society wouldn't be fighting you. Mondragon and the cooperatives in Emilia-Romagna might be work looking at.

Subsidized by the people whose retirements the kids will be paying for when they reach working age.

And don't say that saving up money now will get rid of the need to depend on future generations in retirement. You can't eat a 401k. Retirement is inherently dependent on the productivity of subsequent generations no matter how you move money around.

Re: How can families afford children?

#57

Post by craig1f » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #39

aidenn0 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that craig1f is claiming that if most women did not work, wages would be higher for those women that do work (due to reduced labor supply), so increased labor participation for women has lowered the opportunity cost compared to a hypothetical world in which women work.

So back when being a stay at home mom was the norm, it was hard, but now that working moms are the norm, being a stay at home mom is easy? I don't think that checks out.

I think that things are hard for different reasons. Nothing will ever be easy. If you believe life will get to the point that it's easy, you've got things wrong.

Re: How can families afford children?

#58

Post by dpark » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

aceon48 wrote: post #26

CalRobert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

The sad thing is you both sound like intelligent, upstanding members of society, and are rationally limiting your sadly expensive kids. Meanwhile, the dredges of society have multiple kids, Bc they actually make money from them with their subsidized housing and other benefits they pick up having more kids. And then you factor in “undocumented” immigrants, who also seem to roll in with way more than 2 kids, and your t…

> Bc they actually make money from them with their subsidized housing and other benefits they pick up having more kids.

You should check your numbers. Having kids is essentially never a money-making proposition.

Re: How can families afford children?

#59

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

aceon48 wrote: post #26

CalRobert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

The sad thing is you both sound like intelligent, upstanding members of society, and are rationally limiting your sadly expensive kids. Meanwhile, the dredges of society have multiple kids, Bc they actually make money from them with their subsidized housing and other benefits they pick up having more kids. And then you factor in “undocumented” immigrants, who also seem to roll in with way more than 2 kids, and your t…

Plot twist!

We're immigrants. Documented, of course. Got jealous of people with over a month of vacation and decided to do something about it.

If I can work out a remote work situation we might buy a cheap house and have another kid but tbh I'm terrified because my family has autism in its genes, and maternal age is a risk factor.

Of course, if we'd started off European, she wouldn't have the student debt. Bit of a bummer there.

Re: How can families afford children?

#60

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Mar 06, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #18

CalRobert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

> Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. In America perhaps. Europeans seem to manage, generally on lower salaries than Americans...

We moved to europe. I actually doubled my salary but I only really managed to become a dev here,in the US I floundered. It was the depths of the great recession though.