Live data from Hacker News

How can families afford children?

marginalrevolution.com

31–40 of 83 posts

Re: How can families afford children?

#31

The article focuses on very utilitarian ways of thinking of a family, which is a sad way to look at kids. I know lots of large families - many who are extremely poor - who are the happiest people I know. The difference being that they've made their family their source of joy, and don't look somewhere else to find fulfillment. I'm writing this in case someone reads this article and thinks "well, the math doesn't suppo…

> "well, the math doesn't support having children, so I won't"

The thing is that that's not how it works. It's not the case that everyone first does the math, and then the rational decision. But what does happen is that a lot of families, all over the place, make the individual choice of "we'd love to, but we can't afford another kid". And in aggregate, that leads to lower birth rates across society.

And if society makes it cheaper to have kids, the birth rate goes up.

Re: How can families afford children?

#32
There is another way to look at children, which is from the societal level.

New humans are still the most important inputs to human society. As societies become more specialized and productive, the powers and burdens of new humans go up. Thus, richer societies need fewer people, but each person needs to be more specialized and capable. And inversely, a society that is not producing new humans who are more specialized and capable, is a society that will have trouble advancing.

Evaluating public policy from this perspective produces some different conclusions than the more traditional family-oriented perspective which is often used to look at policies related to children.

Policies that empower women professionally and reproductively mean that only women who affirmatively choose to have children will have them--increasing the chance that they will have the means and will to invest heavily in each child.

And policies that give each child the chance to maximize their potential can be seen as long-term investments, not handouts.

Conversely, policies that permit or force children to develop sub-optimally are wastes that should be eliminated. Today many societies promote policies that encourage procreation (no access to sex education or contraception, incentives for more kids), but don't invest in children (no early childhood education, bad primary and secondary education, poor health care, poor food programs, etc.).

If someone bought a car but refused to pay for gas and oil changes, you would probably say they are making some damn bad decisions. Either maintain the car, or if you can't afford to do that, don't get one until you can.

Traditionally, the analogous kid blame game has fallen on the parents themselves. But parents are part of a larger society, and ultimately, given an ~80 year life span, will only manage about 25% of a new human life. Society will manage the other 75%, but in a lot of ways, our thinking about policy has not caught up to that reality.

Re: How can families afford children?

#33

This article claims a lot of things and assumes many more. I think "affording" children has never been the primary goal of folks having children. Most folks aren't all that good at predicting what it will cost to raise a child or three. Some costs aren't as much with multiple children (used clothing, for example, or sharing rooms makes housing more affordable). Others are higher, such as child care and food costs. So…

There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do, which explains a lot of why men work more after having children than women do. Plus, women obviously invest more in having children than men do.

Re: How can families afford children?

#34

There is another way to look at children, which is from the societal level. New humans are still the most important inputs to human society. As societies become more specialized and productive, the powers and burdens of new humans go up. Thus, richer societies need fewer people, but each person needs to be more specialized and capable. And inversely, a society that is not producing new humans who are more specialized…

This is gold! Thank you! :D

Re: How can families afford children?

#35
post #30
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Today we expect far more parent involvement than ever before (at least in the US)...' True also in the UK. As a kid, the normal after-school routine was to walk home, get changed and play out until it was dark. All achieved with minimal contact with parents. Now kids seem to have very little independent time and this, in my opinion, is/will be very much to their detriment in later life.

Is there a trend in the UK of nosy neighbors reporting unsupervised children to the authorities? This has been a disturbing trend[1] in the US that makes it harder to provide kids with independent time, particularly when the person responding to the complaint is guaranteed to be heavily armed. 1: I say trend, though it's probably much less than 1% of the population, but kids are seen by more than 100 adults in a week…

'Is there a trend in the UK of nosy neighbors reporting unsupervised children to the authorities?'

I'm not sure it's so common but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens from time to time. I guess it depends what time of day and how far away from home they are?

Re: How can families afford children?

#36

The standards we expect for childrearing are also dramatically higher today than ever before. Previous generations just sent the kids off to play after school, without much attention; they expected kids to be 100% on their own after highschool (and even before); and on and on. Today we expect far more parent involvement than ever before (at least in the US), this makes it comparatively more expensive to raise childre…

I feel like most of this comes from the childless. Most parents seem to understand, but people without kids expect you to transform into superwoman/man.

Re: How can families afford children?

#37

Maybe the Norwegian model/Canadian model is a good example (not that it's increasing fertility, but it's improving affordability). We have: - Subsidized daycare - Subsidized education - 1.5 year maternity leave - Subsidies for families with children under a certain income bracket It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

I wonder if the Canadian model of 1.5 years of maternity leave is a must for humanity's survival in the long term. IMHO (without much research) i see many women who have no choice but to feed formula milk to their babies (at daycares) as they are not around to breastfeed. Now i read somewhere that without breastfeeding the baby enough the women's body generates lesser and lesser breastmilk. But, Doctors always recommend breastfeeding as it gives maximum immunity to the baby. In the absence of a proper/sufficient maternal leave (like the Canadian one), i wonder if the next generations of humans become less and less immune to diseases.

Re: How can families afford children?

#38
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not to mention how expensive large vans/suvs are to actually drive them around. " Just driving is pretty expensive. Not owning a car saves loads. Unfortunately, it usually takes a lot of money to live somewhere that doesn't require one. Also worth noting - my wife would be at home with the kid right now (I have a much higher income) except she has substantial student debt, so off to work she goes. This means paying…

The sad thing is you both sound like intelligent, upstanding members of society, and are rationally limiting your sadly expensive kids. Meanwhile, the dredges of society have multiple kids, Bc they actually make money from them with their subsidized housing and other benefits they pick up having more kids. And then you factor in “undocumented” immigrants, who also seem to roll in with way more than 2 kids, and your t…

I just think it's the opposite. Those without constant distractions and expenses end up being more productive and richer.

Re: How can families afford children?

#39
post #27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. You claim to be disagreeing but I think you are agreeing with that comment. By referring to "opportunity cost", the author means precisely that when a woman works it is harder to ha…

I believe that craig1f is claiming that if most women did not work, wages would be higher for those women that do work (due to reduced labor supply), so increased labor participation for women has lowered the opportunity cost compared to a hypothetical world in which women work.

So back when being a stay at home mom was the norm, it was hard, but now that working moms are the norm, being a stay at home mom is easy? I don't think that checks out.

Re: How can families afford children?

#40
post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

Also need to consider that taking a 4-5 year career gap to raise children to school going age just isn't an option for a lot of professions.
Post reply on HN