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How can families afford children?

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Re: How can families afford children?

#41

Post by colmvp »

ppeetteerr wrote: post #9

Maybe the Norwegian model/Canadian model is a good example (not that it's increasing fertility, but it's improving affordability). We have: - Subsidized daycare - Subsidized education - 1.5 year maternity leave - Subsidies for families with children under a certain income bracket It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

> It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

I was looking at how many contraceptions and items my friends bought for their newborn ranging from things related to feeding/sleeping/playing. And that's not including the highest expenses, namely shelter/transportation/food. I thought to myself, my goodness how did we ever raise children in previous millennia? Anecdotally it feels like it's becoming more and more expensive to have children. I'm fairly well-off myself, and I would probably be fine with just one child, if any.

Re: How can families afford children?

#42

Post by cimmanom »

setr wrote: post #19
craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

I have the feeling that even with a full-time housewife, having lots of children still goes hand-in-hand with multi-generation families living together. I can't reasonably imagine dealing with 6 kids without uncle/aunt/grandmother around too

The large families I know each have one full-time homemaker (Mom or Dad) and no other family nearby. They depend heavily on the older children to help out.

For instance, an 8-year-old can do laundry (except for carrying the basket), or vacuum, or prepare sandwiches for the entire family's lunches. A 12-year-old can change diapers, assist in the kitchen, or keep an eye on younger children of any age for an hour or two while Mom and Dad are a couple rooms away cooking or doing other chores. In some states, a 15-year-old can drive siblings to school; and in most a 17-year-old can drive them to other destinations.

One thing I've noticed is that the children in these families are much more mature, responsible, and independent than children of similar ages in 1-3 child families.

Re: How can families afford children?

#43

Post by epx »

noobhacker wrote: post #28
epx wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my case: I walked to and from school every day, and kept playing on street and backyards' bushes every afternoon. My kid I drive to and from school, he never went to the street unattended, he is 10.

It's very interesting that you are aware of the difference yourself. Is there a reason why you can't let your kid be like you? Is it spousal disagreement, living circumstance, or a change in your own attitude?

All of them :) The attitude just changed. And no, I don't live in suburbs, the distance home-school is the same.

Re: How can families afford children?

#44

Post by thunderplot »

ppeetteerr wrote: post #9

Maybe the Norwegian model/Canadian model is a good example (not that it's increasing fertility, but it's improving affordability). We have: - Subsidized daycare - Subsidized education - 1.5 year maternity leave - Subsidies for families with children under a certain income bracket It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

Canadian resident here. Our kids go to daycare, it's not subsidized and costs us $1200 per month per kid (and we had a good deal). Families with kids used to have some tax breaks, they were all eliminated a couple years ago. There's some support though, you need to be really poor to get max ~$500/mo per child.

Even with my relatively good IT salary having kids here is not fun at all.

Re: How can families afford children?

#45

Post by colmvp »

sbov wrote: post #36
compiler-guy wrote: post #4

The standards we expect for childrearing are also dramatically higher today than ever before. Previous generations just sent the kids off to play after school, without much attention; they expected kids to be 100% on their own after highschool (and even before); and on and on. Today we expect far more parent involvement than ever before (at least in the US), this makes it comparatively more expensive to raise childre…

I feel like most of this comes from the childless. Most parents seem to understand, but people without kids expect you to transform into superwoman/man.

Strange, I feel like it's the opposite.

I, as a childless adult, couldn't care less how my friend raises her kid, just as long as she isn't abusive. It's probably because I haven't spent any time learning the ins-and-outs about raising a child, so I don't have a strong opinion either way.

But if anything, my friend has felt internal pressure on decisions she makes with her child via the opinions of other parents. This is especially true to her with respects to the pressures to breastfeed.

Re: How can families afford children?

#46

Post by watwut »

klipt wrote: post #39
aidenn0 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that craig1f is claiming that if most women did not work, wages would be higher for those women that do work (due to reduced labor supply), so increased labor participation for women has lowered the opportunity cost compared to a hypothetical world in which women work.

So back when being a stay at home mom was the norm, it was hard, but now that working moms are the norm, being a stay at home mom is easy? I don't think that checks out.

While being stay at home was the norm, around 33.9% of women in 1950 worked and it continued to go up. That is not completely negligible number. (The number for males was closer to 86.4%)

Re: How can families afford children?

#47

Post by pvelagal »

craig1f wrote: post #5

"Jobs for women are higher-paying and more satisfying than ever before, and that raises the opportunity cost of having large families" This is not true. Depending on the wife for income prevents her from focusing on having a large family. Without the assistance of a grandparent or some expensive nanny, this tends to limit the number of children in the family to 2 or 3. Also, women working has driven the price of hous…

Elizabeth Warren's book "The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents are Going Broke" describes this phenomenon pretty well

Re: How can families afford children?

#48

Post by bobthechef »

ppeetteerr wrote: post #9

Maybe the Norwegian model/Canadian model is a good example (not that it's increasing fertility, but it's improving affordability). We have: - Subsidized daycare - Subsidized education - 1.5 year maternity leave - Subsidies for families with children under a certain income bracket It's affordable, but couples in western countries don't really want more children (just under 2 is the average)

Subsidized by whom? Norway is rich off oil and gas money.

With greater distribution of capital (not income, that's just more wage slavery), we could likely not only afford kids more, but also support social relations that make rearing kids easier. Society wouldn't be fighting you.

Mondragon and the cooperatives in Emilia-Romagna might be work looking at.

Re: How can families afford children?

#49

Post by Broken_Hippo »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #33
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #23

This article claims a lot of things and assumes many more. I think "affording" children has never been the primary goal of folks having children. Most folks aren't all that good at predicting what it will cost to raise a child or three. Some costs aren't as much with multiple children (used clothing, for example, or sharing rooms makes housing more affordable). Others are higher, such as child care and food costs. So…

There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do, which explains a lot of why men work more after having children than women do. Plus, women obviously invest more in having children than men do.

Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation?

And I have no problem with people getting divorced. Divorce rates are a ridiculous standard to rely on because it is based on moral principles. We make it really easy for people to get married, with little to no education about what a healthy relationship might include. I'd rather folks get divorced while they can be on friendly terms, actually, and I'd happily require them to go through some counseling to learn how to do so afterwards (so long as there is no abuse involved).

Women do physically produce the child and most can breastfeed or pump milk. Ideally, strong fraternal leave policies means she can get some support while doing this stuff. Even if the father doesn't live with the mother, he can still help out. After that, there isn't anything the woman does that a man can't do, especially while they are young. It just might take some education. Men do it all the time when the woman dies during childbirth, after all. And honestly, a woman should be up to date with education as well since her information could easily be out of date with current medical standards.

Re: How can families afford children?

#50

Post by bobthechef »

Actually, I recall reading or hearing somewhere that the negative correlation between income and number of kids mostly applies to consumerist societies, which is what much of the West has become. I can't find the source ATM, so if you know, please post.
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