Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#321

Post by chrismcb » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:43 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #182

tdons wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your IP Address is Blocked from www.gutenberg.org We apologize for this inconvenience. Your IP address has been automatically blocked from the address you tried to visit at www.gutenberg.org. This is because the geoIP database shows your address is in the country of Germany. Diagnostic information: Your IP address: Referrer URL (if available): http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/latest-covers Time (GMT): Saturday, 03-Mar-…

> A Court in Germany ordered that access to certain items in the Project Gutenberg collection are blocked from Germany... until the issue is resolved during appeal, [Project Gutenberg] will comply. This is really misleading. It implies -- nay, outright states -- that Gutenberg is merely complying with the court order. But the court did not order the entire site to be blocked. A more candid answer is found in their in…

It says "ordered that access to certain items..." I don't see anything misleading, or any implication that the court ordered the whole site blocked. I think it is obvious that only a few items were ordered to be blocked but they decided to block the whole site

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#322

Post by golem14 » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:44 AM UTC

deanmen wrote: post #296

smsm42 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where German language websites advertising in German, to Germans, accepting Euros, and shipping to German addresses, is somehow not considered to be "doing business" in Germany simply because their offices and servers happen to be hosted in the US You're saying it like it's a bad thing. If US has better laws than Germany and businesses serving Germans want to choose that jurisdiction because of it, it's "competitio…

You have to pay U.S. taxes on worldwide income. The U.S. is the only country that does this, though.

Not quite the only, but almost.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#323

Post by simcop2387 » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

obastani wrote: post #190

abalone wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A Court in Germany ordered that access to certain items in the Project Gutenberg collection are blocked from Germany... until the issue is resolved during appeal, [Project Gutenberg] will comply. This is really misleading. It implies -- nay, outright states -- that Gutenberg is merely complying with the court order. But the court did not order the entire site to be blocked. A more candid answer is found in their in…

I thought it was pretty clear. They specifically say "certain items" were to be blocked, not the entire website.

This is answered in the FAQ at the bottom of the article. Essentially because this sets a precedent that Germany believes it can sue over anything in the german language and other items in the library might potentially cause the same kind of lawsuit it's better to just block everything instead.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#324

Post by psergeant » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

> So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US?

I suspect that if the Brits started claiming jurisdiction — well, _everywhere_ - on this basis, then that would raise eyebrows

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#325

Post by Xylakant » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:01 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #318

Xylakant wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the cost of harming all german users. The Fischer Verlag honestly couldn’t care less - they probably like the outcome. Now even books that they wouldn’t have a legal recourse against are no longer available and must be bought. What an unexpected bonus!

Yes, that is true, and unfortunate. However, under US copyright law, Project Gutenberg does have the right to host those books. And it's never prudent to compromise regarding illegal demands.

I’d question it’s illegal. They have the right to host the books in the US, granted. But do they have the right to distribute them in germany? That’s where the court says no. And given the legal situation in germany, I think the courts decision could be correct.

It’s also a bad decision in practical and strategic terms: either they appeal the decision, then they accepted jurisdiction and the legality of the injunction or they don’t - and what options do they have then? Keep up the block indefinitely or cave in at some point, showing that against a determined adversary, they’ll eventually back down? Imho, it’s good only for internet cookie points.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#326

Post by balp » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:10 AM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #152

antoncohen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> International websites have to respect local laws. No way. If I, a US citizen, publish a website hosted in the US that is critical of the Turkish president, should a Turkish court be able to compel me to take it down or block access from Turkey? What if I'm Israeli and I publish open source software, source and binary hosted in Israel, that is against US hacking laws. Should a US court be able to order an Israeli t…

Another example: If you're in a country where child pornography is legal, should all other countries just accept it? If you're in a country where doxxing is legal, should the victims not be able to do anything against it?

> If you're in a country where child pornography is legal, should all other countries just accept it?

No, they could try to convince the country to change it laws. Maybe if they think the issue is important enough blockade the country. Maybe even with help of other countries that have the same idea about the problem. But they can't prosecute a citizen of that country for doing anything legal in that country. It's possible to try to change the other countries laws using diplomacy.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#327

Post by Buge » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:17 AM UTC

Findus23 wrote: post #97

I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…

> International websites have to respect local laws.

What does "local laws" mean? Laws local to me and the website I run? Sure.

Laws local to someone in the world (aka laws non-local to me)? No I'm not going to obey Chinese laws.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#328

Post by envy2 » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:19 AM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #171

simonh wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it that distinguishes a web site from an international web site? Do you feel that laws on web site content passed in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Vietnam should apply to web sites created or operated by you or posts made by you on line? Would you expect yourself and other global posters and journalists to be bound, for example, by Thailand’s Lese Majeste laws on criticism or comment related to their k…

gutenberg.org has a link to view it in German on the front page. I guess if you provide several translations and use a top level domain like .org, you are more likely an international web site than an English-only .us web site.

German is spoken in countries other than Germany: looking at only countries where the German language enjoys some form of official or co-official status, we have Germany (of course), Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Belgium, and Luxembourg. Denmark, Hungary, Italy, and Poland also formally recognise German as a minority language.

That's not to mention the countless expats/second language speakers around the world.

Having a German language version of your website/product is by no means equivalent to being subject to the jurisdiction of Germany the country.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#329

Post by mirimir » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:36 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #325

mirimir wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is true, and unfortunate. However, under US copyright law, Project Gutenberg does have the right to host those books. And it's never prudent to compromise regarding illegal demands.

I’d question it’s illegal. They have the right to host the books in the US, granted. But do they have the right to distribute them in germany? That’s where the court says no. And given the legal situation in germany, I think the courts decision could be correct. It’s also a bad decision in practical and strategic terms: either they appeal the decision, then they accepted jurisdiction and the legality of the injunctio…

They could arguably have ignored the decision. If a German court rules that something should not be available in Germany, they should order German ISPs to block it. That's what the UK does about "illegal" torrenting and streaming. And that's what China does about the Dali Lama, Falun Gong, Uighur resistance, and so on.

Edit: OK, so some argue that Project Gutenberg, which does business from the US, and which has no physical presence in Germany, should have done what the German court ordered. But consider the implications. Firms hosting content from a particular country would be subject to court orders from every country. That would not end well.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#330

Post by foepys » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 6:44 AM UTC

discordianfish wrote: post #170

zanny wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the EU still have the same gross and absurd copyright terms and laws the US does? It fights US companies like Google on privacy and information security grounds, but seems to follow lockstep with the US on completely irrational copyright policy like "75 years after the author dies, only then can anyone else reproduce this work". The US has it because its government is coopted by big media like Disney, MPAA,…

Because, unlike some frankly sometimes a bit ignorant view of especially Americans, Germany isn't the paradise of individual/customers rights paradise it's often portraied as. It fights companies like Google not because privacy and security concerns but protectionism and the public accepts that due to some reasonble concerns about privacy spiked with deeply entrenched anti-americanism. (For context: I'm German)

I'm also German and strongly disagree with your opinion. Privacy is a very delicate topic in Germany since the Nazis and the Stasi used to arrest people for even talking bad about them.