I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…
> I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws No, they don’t, and shouldn’t. I’m free to offend the sensibilities of China, disgrace the Ayatollah, and violate a wide variety of other “local laws” from the comfort of my home or workplace. If those places don’t like it, they’re also free to censor content until such time that their populace won’t tolerate it any longer.
Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
141–150 of 529 posts
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#142I’m really for open access to old books, but for playing devils advocate I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws. After all those are the only ones I can directly influence (by voting, etc.) If we’d start to ignore this (even if it is in my advantage in this case), this means I have no influence any more on how companies are allowed to interact with me (which shouldn’t be the cas…
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Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s just not how it works by any standard. Target users in a country, be subject to laws in that country. Basically all courts will assume jurisdiction by that rule. See for example the Mega case: Kim dotcom was a NZ resident, he was still prosecuted in the US. The critical question is enforcement: no US law enforcement would carry out a North Korean court order. Things get problematic if the is a viable enforceme…
Does project Gutenberg identify their German based volunteers? Are they going to respond to a German order to identify them, assuming they're not responding to a German order to suppress books in the first place?
Up until now it was a no-brainer to identify with project Gutenberg, so the volunteers might have exposed themselves already. It probably still is, since the project complied with the court order. It’s mentioned in the plaintiffs argument which at least raises the possibility. So they might or might not be identifiable, but that question only matters for enforcement, not for the question of jurisdiction.
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with you. Following every law is neither practical and in the case of censorship even counterproductive. I just wanted to point out that the reaction of the court isn’t as entirely pointless as it may seem on first thought.
> I just wanted to point out that the reaction of the court isn’t as entirely pointless as it may seem on first thought. And I think you’re right to do so! Honestly, regarding the whole case, I think the court has erred in accepting the publisher’s argument that Project Gutenberg is a valid target for a lawsuit in Germany. If the publisher wants the books removed it should sue in the US, if it wants to prevent access…
They have no legal basis for the books being removed in the US, since they are in the public domain there. If they can't make German law stick, they have no recourse.
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought so too reading the first couple of pages of the decision, but in the judicial conclusion section, the jurisdictional issue is squarely resolved on the "targets German users" issue, which the court bases on 1) Partial translation of the website 2) The availability of German language works 3) The "anyone anywhere" language on the website 4) A disclaimer that people should check their local laws (implying in t…
This legal theory is completely nuts. This means if I write something in, say, Russian on my website, and it's accessible to people from Russia, I am now considered to be obliged to follow every whim of Putin regarding my site's contents, even if I don't ever step my foot in Russia and don't want anything to do with it? Hopefully this is just plain old corruption and not idiotic legal theory that language you use mak…
I'm reminded of the quote "A language is a dialect with an army and navy"
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#146Fabulous :S The second time in 6 months German courts violated the public interest and ruled in favour of vested corporate intrests with an affect on me: * In late 2017, a useless commercial weather forecast outlet (aggregating its data itself from national institutations!) sued the German National Weather service into having to take down its free weather app from the Apple and Goole app stores (development and opera…
Why does the EU still have the same gross and absurd copyright terms and laws the US does? It fights US companies like Google on privacy and information security grounds, but seems to follow lockstep with the US on completely irrational copyright policy like "75 years after the author dies, only then can anyone else reproduce this work".
The US has it because its government is coopted by big media like Disney, MPAA, and RIAA and the average American is too ignorant / doesn't care at all about the death and stifling of culture that 100+ year copyright terms bring about. Europeans seem to have more democratic governments that are more willing to represent the interests of their citizens, so why is it just as bad over there?
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#147The explanation is at least slightly dishonest (hopefully not intentionally) in claiming that jurisdiction was established due to content being available in German, which makes it sound like a whacko court claiming to own a language. Reading the decision one learns that some of the volunteers involved in running PG and posting these materials were residents of Germany.
That seems like especially bizarre reasoning considering that Germany isn't even the only country that speaks German natively. Why do they get jurisdiction instead of Austria?
> Why do they get jurisdiction instead of Austria?
They don't get jurisdiction instead of Austria; the court rules it had jurisdiction to hear the claim brought before it, not that Austrian courts would lack such jurisdiction.
Jurisdiction is very often not exclusive.
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#148Can someone in Germany confirm this block is actually in place? In any case, if anyone in Germany would like to access Project Gutenberg, I maintain a full, daily updated mirror here: https://mirrors.sorengard.com/gutenberg . I also support FTP and Rsync if you’d like to download that way. No donations are asked for, but it would be helpful if more people hosted mirrors for precisely this reason :). Unfortunately thi…
Thanks for the mirror!
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought so too reading the first couple of pages of the decision, but in the judicial conclusion section, the jurisdictional issue is squarely resolved on the "targets German users" issue, which the court bases on 1) Partial translation of the website 2) The availability of German language works 3) The "anyone anywhere" language on the website 4) A disclaimer that people should check their local laws (implying in t…
This legal theory is completely nuts. This means if I write something in, say, Russian on my website, and it's accessible to people from Russia, I am now considered to be obliged to follow every whim of Putin regarding my site's contents, even if I don't ever step my foot in Russia and don't want anything to do with it? Hopefully this is just plain old corruption and not idiotic legal theory that language you use mak…
The language is one factor of many used to determine if you're doing business in Germany. Otherwise you have loopholes where German language websites advertising in German, to Germans, accepting Euros, and shipping to German addresses, is somehow not considered to be "doing business" in Germany simply because their offices and servers happen to be hosted in the US.
Not completely nuts, but definitely an overreach.
Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can see the courts point: International websites have to respect local laws No, they don’t, and shouldn’t. I’m free to offend the sensibilities of China, disgrace the Ayatollah, and violate a wide variety of other “local laws” from the comfort of my home or workplace. If those places don’t like it, they’re also free to censor content until such time that their populace won’t tolerate it any longer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Carruthers
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