Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#61

Post by jaakl » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

vortico wrote: post #48

I am completely confused by how this court order even works. I am assuming that PGLAF is owned and operated in the US. "PGLAF has no actual presence or activity in Germany". I suppose the Berne Convention allows US police to honor international court orders for copyright violation, but what's to stop a country from making a ridiculous law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the…

Isn’t publishing content over web to the public “activity in this country”? I think it is. The magical Internet allows actions in other countries without physical presence.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#62

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

vortico wrote: post #48

I am completely confused by how this court order even works. I am assuming that PGLAF is owned and operated in the US. "PGLAF has no actual presence or activity in Germany". I suppose the Berne Convention allows US police to honor international court orders for copyright violation, but what's to stop a country from making a ridiculous law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the…

>what's to stop a country from making a ridiculous law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the 1 billion people who own a Bible or other old text without paying license fees, and collecting all the money in the world?

So, similarly of how nothing stopped the BS Copyright Term Extension Act itself -- and firms are policing and collecting money all around the world based on it?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#63

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

jaakl wrote: post #32

> PGLAF is entirely in the US PGLAF has awesome mission, but that base assumption is not really correct. With publishing content in Germany (or whatever country) over Internet (or otherwise) they have crossed physical and legal borders. You must obey local laws everywhere and US laws are legal in their soil only. The attitude that US laws are something globally applicable and Internet is something above local laws is…

> total blockage “revenge” is just plain childish.

It seems like it is working to get them publicity. If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws.

It is their website, so too bad for germany.

Protesting ridiculous copywrite laws is perfectly reasonable.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#64

Post by freeflight » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #44

ballenf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link addresses just that: > The decision to acceed to the German Court's order to make items inaccessible from Germany is intended to be a temporary appeasement, while the appeal occurs - this is because the German appeal Court will likely look disfavorably on PGLAF if it shows contempt for the German Court.

Well, no crap sherlock I don't see why Project Gutenberg thinks it isn't subject to German law. And yes, it sucks and it is against the spirit of the internet. But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website.

> But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website.

Sued by whom? Afaik gutenberg.org is registered in California, no German jurisdiction, the cease&desist orders usually used to shut something like this down don't apply here.

Same deal with ISPs: Afaik there's no legal framework to support anything like that, it's for exactly that reason why law firms like Waldorf and Frommer uses cease&desist letters to pretty much blackmail people into stopping the "distribution", it's all based on civil action.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#65

Post by JorgeGT » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

jaakl wrote: post #32

> PGLAF is entirely in the US PGLAF has awesome mission, but that base assumption is not really correct. With publishing content in Germany (or whatever country) over Internet (or otherwise) they have crossed physical and legal borders. You must obey local laws everywhere and US laws are legal in their soil only. The attitude that US laws are something globally applicable and Internet is something above local laws is…

But they are not publishing content in Germany? German citizens are contacting and downloading content hosted in US servers, aren't they? This is like saying HN is publishing in Spain and has to obey Spanish laws just because I'm connecting from here.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#66

Post by s3nnyy » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

> "Because the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction, and allowed the world's largest publishing group to bully Project Gutenberg for these 18 books, there is every reason to think that this will keep happening"

Why do German courts think they can overstep jurisdictions?

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#67

Post by imurray » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #27

The Plaintiff is S. Fischer Verlag, GmbH Are they related to Springer Verlag and/or that other German publishing group whose main objective was to take collections of Wikipedia articles, verbatim, and turn them into books?

"Verlag" is just the German word for publishing house.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#68

Post by Xylakant » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

vortico wrote: post #48

I am completely confused by how this court order even works. I am assuming that PGLAF is owned and operated in the US. "PGLAF has no actual presence or activity in Germany". I suppose the Berne Convention allows US police to honor international court orders for copyright violation, but what's to stop a country from making a ridiculous law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the…

> law that extends the copyright length to 2100 years, creating court orders for the 1 billion people who own a Bible or other old text without paying license fees, and collecting all the money in the world?

Generally speaking: Nothing. Practically speaking: Impossibility to enforce unless you’re a major power. Look how american laws often get enforced world wide while North Korean law doesn’t practically matter.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#69

Post by jaakl » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:55 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #57

quasarj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wooah careful there buddy, using the word "revenge" is not legal in my jurisdiction, and you just published it here by placing it on the internet!

You mock what the parent said, but yet, if something isn't legal in the USA, most would find it OK to be cut.

I dont say that such interpretation of international law over web content is practical, reasonable, etc, but it is as it is. Better be aware of this if you publish anything not trivial, otherwise your US (for example) lawyers will be happy to work on your hopeless case.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#70

Post by rawland » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

dsacco wrote: post #5

Can someone in Germany confirm this block is actually in place? In any case, if anyone in Germany would like to access Project Gutenberg, I maintain a full, daily updated mirror here: https://mirrors.sorengard.com/gutenberg . I also support FTP and Rsync if you’d like to download that way. No donations are asked for, but it would be helpful if more people hosted mirrors for precisely this reason :). Unfortunately thi…

Works (Search, lookup, random German authors) fine for me.

PS: I'm surfing with (mostly) this configuration:

http://12bytes.org/tech/firefox/firefoxgecko-configuration-g...

No idea, if this might affect the outcome. IMHO, not.