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China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

nytimes.com

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Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#71
(Pardon the bit of philosophy, but I think it's on-topic, well-grounded, and substantially novel (at least to me!):)

The myriad of issues of the present era seem chaotic, but I'm starting to believe I see the defining theme, the one that will characterize it in history books, and I see the story in the article as merely a part of it: The contest between democracy and liberty on one hand, and wealth and power for an elite on the other. People like Thiel say "freedom and democracy" are not "compatible" with "capitalism".[0] Similarly, the Chinese government (and Russian, and others) is a wealthy elite that keeps the power from its citizens and the bulk of the wealth to itself. It's aristocracy: The belief that power should be controlled by the elite and inherited, not delegated by a vote of universal peers with equal rights.

It's not really "capitalism" that that Thiel advocates, but economic power for the currently wealthy unrestricted by the democratic wishes of other citizens (i.e. simply more power for himself, the oldest, most base political instinct - again, see China). He has fellow advocates in the current US government: For example, the Secretary of State (another business elite) and others have openly said the US shouldn't sacrifice making money for human rights, and openly support brutal, oppressive dictatorships. In the US courts, conservatives have given corporations and wealthy far more power over the democratic will of the people - corporations have gained Constitutional rights of real humans; they and the wealthy have gained unlimited, anonymous financial influence in politics and elections; and they've gained protections from the courts themselves (class-action restrictions, arbitration requirements, etc.). Another example is one vein of extreme anti-regulation dogma that says, on principle, economic powers should not be limited by the will of the majority (I'm not saying all arguments against regulation are problematic, only the principle that the issues shouldn't be decided democratically).

At times there truly is an immediate tradeoff. Daimler-Benz, Google, Hollywood, and others have to deal with this real problem in China and it will affect their bottom lines. But from an historical perspective it's nothing new and is a minor sacrifice. Few of those companies would exist in their current state or enjoy their wealth if not for the massive sacrifices of life and wealth made by prior generations; there are 18-year-olds still at the bottom of the English Channel who never even set foot in France or fired a weapon. What are the corporations and we doing for the next generation? Will we be merely parasites that consume the benefits bestowed on us and pass on less, rather than invest in and expand freedom as our ancestors did? The U.S. Declaration of Independence ends "we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor" for liberty. It wasn't the opposite: they didn't pledge to give up their liberty for greater fortunes - but that's what Thiel, et al want.

In the long run, it's not a tradeoff. Giving freedom and opportunity to more people makes them more productive; it's a wonderful, mutually-reinforcing phenomenon between democracy and freedom on one hand and prosperity on the other. It has made the democracies the wealthiest, most free countries in the history of the world. It has given hope and liberty to more than a billion people; today's wealthy were yesterday's poor. It's worked throughout the world, from Japan to Latin America to Taiwan to Europe and the US to many more places.

But at times there are immediate tradeoffs and sacrifices that we must decide to make: Will we give up wealth for democracy and freedom? Do we want democracy and freedom (and long-term prosperity), or unbridled economic wealth and power for a nascent aristocracy? It seems like an easy choice to me once you think about it that way.[1]

[0] https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...

[1] Of course, it's even easier when I frame the question that I answer!

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#72
post #29

Whilst I think there's some merit in the recent increase in China articles here. The tone of this one seems sensational. What I find most intriguing about discovering China is what it says about me and the so-called West. China's influence is growing you say? My first reaction is concern, but my second is humility, as if looking in a mirror. I can't help but feel a little like this article immaturely criticises a top…

This isn't about western power, it's about western values being protected in the west. I'm sure that people wouldn't be so concerned if China kept its censorship within its borders. As far as I know the west doesn't systematically subvert Chinese values within China.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#73
post #17

Facebook suspended Mr. Guo’s account. In a statement, the company said the account published the personal information of others without their consent, which violated the platform’s policies. Zuckerberg wants to be in China in such a bad way. He's learned Mandarin, plays up his family connections (via his wife's family), and puts on the charm when visiting China. He's created relationships with officials at every leve…

The way Zuckerberg has gone about it, I think he is awkwardly a sinophile, he isn't doing those things just to (or even primarily to) get Facebook into China.

By giving off this impression, all the better for his agenda.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#74

Australia is deeply involved in this. China are actively trying to control conversation with Chinese students and immigrants here. The govt has literally bought all Chinese language press and semi regularly run full page 'articles' in the major press. They have been caught out several time pressuring universities and placing disruptive people in lectures that discuss areas they don't want. I believed agents recently…

When you say Australia is involved in this, do you mean the Australian govt is involved or just that China is doing this on Australian soil? I don't understand from your comment whether you're referring to the Australian govt or the Chinese government as having bought all the press. And who "they" are when referring to disrupting lectures.

It's the latter.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#75

This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state. I realize the obvious vulnerabilities of such a setup, but if we believe free speech to be an essential element of our societies then we need social platforms beholden only to our own laws even if they simply exist in parallel to private platforms. The internet, and social media in t…

Such a platform is desperately hard to argue for, but I suspect that a trusted, basic platform provided by governments will become defacto in many nations within our lifetimes. We do have component precedent cases to build upon in Estonia, with the (failed) British ID cards etc, but I do wish a nation somewhere was further along. Perhaps small countries Luxembourg, Belgium, principities and Estonia are the places to…

> socialism just isn't fast enough

the "Best Korea" has the fastest socialism in the world - heck it even has its own "social networking platform"

...and it's also "democratic" (in its own way, of course)

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#76
post #68

This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state. I realize the obvious vulnerabilities of such a setup, but if we believe free speech to be an essential element of our societies then we need social platforms beholden only to our own laws even if they simply exist in parallel to private platforms. The internet, and social media in t…

Conversely, it's arguable that we need social platforms that are immune to censorship by any state or private party. Such as properly implemented Tor onion services. But readily accessible from the open Internet.

I don't think these ideas need to be a binary choice. Some amount of redundancy may be beneficial. Strong anonymous communication is desirable when trying to defend against the state but at the same time if it's accessible and anonymous I'd argue it has the same vulnerabilities as Facebook or Twitter currently do with regard to being a non-obvious (to the layperson) propaganda tool. On the other hand, a state sponsored system runs the risk of being used to suppress dissidence. It could be argued that having both and simply paying the cost of redundancy might be a good idea. I don't know if it's the direction I'd argue for, but it's the first thing to come to mind as an off the cuff solution.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#77
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean an Sinophile or do you mean he has a Chinese fetish. They are different things. One may be benign, where the other may mean there could be an issue.

"Sinophile" is a pretty standard word with no perverted fetish meaning, see wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophile > A Sinophile or a Chinophile is a person who demonstrates a strong interest and love for Chinese culture or its people.[1] It is also commonly used to describe those knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture (such as scholars and students), non-native Chinese language speakers, pro-Chines…

Sorry, yes, I know the diff. I mean, I know Francophiles and Anglophiles [and obvs. Sinophiles]. And I meant fetish not in the sexual fetish context, but fetish as in fetishizing something. Do they mean Zuck fetishizes China [as in ethnic fetishism [1]]or that he simply "likes" China, but does not fetishize it.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_fetishism

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#78
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sinophile" is a pretty standard word with no perverted fetish meaning, see wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophile > A Sinophile or a Chinophile is a person who demonstrates a strong interest and love for Chinese culture or its people.[1] It is also commonly used to describe those knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture (such as scholars and students), non-native Chinese language speakers, pro-Chines…

Sorry, yes, I know the diff. I mean, I know Francophiles and Anglophiles [and obvs. Sinophiles]. And I meant fetish not in the sexual fetish context, but fetish as in fetishizing something. Do they mean Zuck fetishizes China [as in ethnic fetishism [1]]or that he simply "likes" China, but does not fetishize it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_fetishism

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. It is really hard to judge someone's interest in other culture. It could start out as a fetish and evolve into something more balanced as you begin to learn what really is. I've seen many foreigners in China go through this. Since Zuckerberg can't just take a few years off and live in a hutong, I don't know see that happening.

In any case, I don't think it matters. China and Chinese is like a hobby for Zuckerberg that he is interested in. I don't think getting Facebook into China is a huge concern at all for him, he's just using his position to do what he wants.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#79

Australia is deeply involved in this. China are actively trying to control conversation with Chinese students and immigrants here. The govt has literally bought all Chinese language press and semi regularly run full page 'articles' in the major press. They have been caught out several time pressuring universities and placing disruptive people in lectures that discuss areas they don't want. I believed agents recently…

The Canadian federal government seems to have been compromised as well, there is significant amounts of serious financial and drug crimes occurring in Canada that is very clearly disproportionately (to put it nicely) associated with immigrants from mainland China, newspapers are regularly reporting on it, there are anecdotal stories all over the place, but there's no "evidence" because law enforcement will not touch…

Why would the Canadian govt. give special treatment to Chinese people? I think there's just not clear evidence. Look at the endless talk of Chinese people running up the prices of homes in Vancouver, that gets tons of attention, but it's generally legal. The crimes you suggest are much different than that.

Re: China is trying to police what people are saying about it around the world

#80

This is just me soapboxing, but I would argue that situations like this illustrate a need for online social platforms run by the state. I realize the obvious vulnerabilities of such a setup, but if we believe free speech to be an essential element of our societies then we need social platforms beholden only to our own laws even if they simply exist in parallel to private platforms. The internet, and social media in t…

You have those in China and Russia. Only they're run by private companies that dance to the state's tune.
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