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Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

mtlynch.io

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Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anywhere else, yea, but at Google specifically, not an option. Executives don't override the committee, except maybe Larry and Sergey. And if your advice is 'be friends with the CEO', I'm sure that'll scale right up. The good news is that, based on reports from Googlers here, it sounds like the system is changing for the lower promotion tiers.

How did 'a senior executive' become the CEO? Obviously absurd and clearly not what I wrote. It's not about 'overriding' the committee, it's about having a champion on the inside. You seem to believe there's no human element to this process. It's all number crunching -- like they're picking stocks with a good P/E ratio. But the higher up you go the more your people skills are valued and none of that will show up in da…

I didn't say the committee was numerical, though their reputation is such. OP's challenge is that Google's promotion committee isn't an executive panel, or subject to appeals except from perhaps the highest executives. It's a random panel of experts who you'll likely never have met, because the company is 100k engineers, and working on your small corner of Maps or whatever makes it unlikely you'll have ample opportunity to meet people from Security, or Search or Adwords or Adsense or Golang or Youtube or Nest or any of the myriad of other products besides yours from which the promotion panel is randomly pulled. You're essentially suggesting that to go from say Software Development Engineer 2 to Senior Software Development Engineer, you need to simply schmooze a few thousand coworkers.

> But the higher up you go the more your people skills are valued and none of that will show up in data. Guarantee you nebulous categories like 'personality' and 'fit' are bandied about frequently in these discussions.

Remember we're talking about promoting an engineer to a higher level engineer, not into management. I don't know panels discuss, but given the odds are that nobody on the panel knows anything about you other than whats in the committee packet, it seems at least possible that soft skills are not considered.

> If promotions were strictly numerical as you seem to believe then they'd be more meritocratic, but I believe the OP's point was he felt the process was unfair.

I'm not sure about that. My reading is that the OP left because the committee was saw themselves as numerical, but ended up being pathologically and myopically so. The metrics they see are the ones that can be calculated, often easily. Getting dinged for finding more bugs than you fixed in legacy software, when they mistake known bug counts for actual bug counts. Treating unquantifiable results like unreleased software as invalid. Ignoring necessary but difficult results to quantify like interviewing candidates, documenting code, and writing test suites.

Such a pathology can't be solved by knowing the right people, especially not when the system is designed to prevent this exact technique. The senior executive's ear OP needed wasn't one on the promo committee, it was the one(s) reassigning his team projects every quarter. Or barring that, one at another company.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#762

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

- you're a lot better off working at a good company -- MUCH better off -- unless you have a pretty damn concrete idea of what you're doing.

What makes so sure? Have you started your own thing? Glad to hear about your story/lessons learned.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#764
post #701
post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shipping projects on time, and under budget, especially when they are large in scope and involve complex technologies or large teams that you've led, and especially when those projects have impact on the company's bottom line, those project are considered major impact and and those engineers are amply rewarded Wasn't the point of the article that the Grunt work that has to be done and makes things better for everyo…

Disclaimer: manager at Google. You make an interesting point, and I'd like to suggest an alternative lens to view it from, as a thought experiment. Let's say company X values work that benefits company X, and that's why they hired you and pay your salary. You've given two examples of promotion rationale, one in which you clearly and objectively demonstrated the impact of the work. And the other, speculative, as you s…

To me, this thinking seems like a sure way to get an unmaintanable mess. Now, just polishing a codebase forever without adding any features obviously isn't a valuable way to spend time. But the difference between changing one value in one configuration struct and it having no unforseen side effects and having to go trough multiple classes and reasoning about possible thread races etc. Can make a huge difference in feature adding time. However, how do we measure this?

If all features were equal, like widget production, we'd definitely be able to prove or disprove the productivity boost, but I haven't ever worked in a context where this is the case. There's no guarantee that feature implementation time will go down, maybe it did just not go up as much as it would otherwise, maybe people manage to make more useful features in the future, or at least not as much less useful as they would have been (we would expect utility/feature to go down as a system matures)

When I worked in a two-person team it was easier, of course, the time I spent on improving the code base I soon got back when I had to implement new functionality on a short deadline, this reflected well on me in performance reviews. The problem in a larger team is that it might be someone else who is able to implement a feature quickly due to my improvements.

My guess is that we should be lucky that there are guys like the OP who naively spend time on "low impact" code improvements even though they might not reap the rewards. Without them we would only have people doing the bare minimum to implement new features with a big ball of spaghetti as a result, where projects are abandoned just because no one is willing to maintain them any more. (does this sound like some company we know?)

I guess what I'm describing is that we might end up with a prisoners dilemma situation, where optimising for short term measurability represents defection.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#765
Thank you for sharing this. Your story actually made me think about myself - whether I am actually doing something because I believe it's best for company goals, or I am doing something because I want my work to be visible and viewed as valuable.

I work in a very small team, where promotions don't exist, but I am more aware now, that I often try to work on taks which are more easily recognizable as "wow you did something cool", instead of focusing on quality of code and work. And that's just because I fear to seen as a slacker.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did 'a senior executive' become the CEO? Obviously absurd and clearly not what I wrote. It's not about 'overriding' the committee, it's about having a champion on the inside. You seem to believe there's no human element to this process. It's all number crunching -- like they're picking stocks with a good P/E ratio. But the higher up you go the more your people skills are valued and none of that will show up in da…

I didn't say the committee was numerical, though their reputation is such. OP's challenge is that Google's promotion committee isn't an executive panel, or subject to appeals except from perhaps the highest executives. It's a random panel of experts who you'll likely never have met, because the company is 100k engineers, and working on your small corner of Maps or whatever makes it unlikely you'll have ample opportun…

> Google's promotion committee isn't an executive panel, or subject to appeals except from perhaps the highest executives. It's a random panel of experts

At most of the companies I've worked, if a VP or senior exec likes you they make it known to the committee or a key person on it.

This just comes from my personal experience working at large companies. It's also true of just getting something done: usually the most efficient way is contacting a VP (or relevant executive) who can move things. I've wasted years of my life trying to wade through bureaucracy.

> Remember we're talking about promoting an engineer to a higher level engineer, not into management.

You don't need to be in management for your people skills to matter. If you're a senior engineer / team lead / whatever, you're seen as authority, an expert, someone consulted for wisdom. If you're hostile or rude it reflects badly on the company, hence these committees look at your people skills.

> it seems at least possible that soft skills are not considered.

I can't speak for Google explicitly but I can say your soft skills are always considered. Always. They consider them when they hire you and most places absolutely place a premium on them when promoting.

It's one of the reasons the requirements for promotions are so ill-defined everywhere. It's not just a concrete list of achievements, it's how your coworkers and manager view your personality.

> but ended up being pathologically and myopically

Yep -- politics. That's unfortunately how it works. You can assume it was an aberrant anomaly, in my experience politics rules the roost when promotions are being doled out.

> The senior executive's ear OP needed wasn't one on the promo committee

The senior executive wouldn't be on the committee, he or she would put in a good word for you.

Look, you don't have to take my word for it. If you know any senior HR people at your company or other companies, ask them how promotions are handled. It won't be uniform but I'm guessing politics, reputation and soft skills are most of the time (unfortunately) going to outweigh programming metrics.

/my two cents

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#767
post #2

Author here. Happy to answer any questions about the post or about my experience at Google.

You are a good writer and I enjoyed reading the article. I agree with many of the other points written here such as politics being omnipresent in the corporate world.

I am writing to add one point I did not see mentioned elsewhere:

You are making an implicit assumption that working on a "smaller" idea (like the ones mentioned in Indie Hackers) is somehow less risky than aspiring to be the next Zuck. Empirically, this seems to be false.

I have worked for ~15 years on startups. I have many friends, who are also entrepreneurs. I have observations on all sorts of efforts - from small side projects to large VC-backed bets to bootstrapped businesses.

My takeaway is that technology startups are characterized by a tremendous amount of risk and require a lot of hard work - regardless of the type of venture. I encourage you to talk to founders (in person, not reading PR-oriented websites like Indie Hackers) and verify that for yourself.

If I had to make up numbers to illustrate this notion, I'd say that making a $1B/year business might be 0.001% likely, while making a $1M/year business might be 0.1% likely - but for all practical purposes, both are incredibly challenging to pull off. If that's the case, might as well aim as high as possible and justify the risk involved.

Turns out the one thing that really matters is having a strong idea, which is forgiving to the many mistakes entrepreneurs inevitably make. In that regard, I wish you luck and hope you end up with a strong concept sooner rather than later.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#768
post #767
post #2

Author here. Happy to answer any questions about the post or about my experience at Google.

You are a good writer and I enjoyed reading the article. I agree with many of the other points written here such as politics being omnipresent in the corporate world. I am writing to add one point I did not see mentioned elsewhere: You are making an implicit assumption that working on a "smaller" idea (like the ones mentioned in Indie Hackers) is somehow less risky than aspiring to be the next Zuck. Empirically, this…

I'm not the author of the article, but I did create Indie Hackers, I've talked to many hundreds of smaller indie founders, and I also went through YC where I met many hundreds of moonshot founders (and was one myself), so I have some perspective here as well.

My conclusion is that starting a small indie business is less risky than aspiring to be the next Zuck.

First, it's harder to fail, because there are fewer forces pushing you to make risky decisions. For example, you can start doing contract work, take on clients, and use them to support you while you build your indie business. Hell, you can keep working at your full-time job if you want to and build your business on the side. Those are bedrocks of income that can last you more or less indefinitely. Often, your employer ends up being your business' first customer. Additionally, you don't have an investors telling you to quit your job and use their capital to scale up your business' costs beyond the level that your revenue can support, which is one of the primary reasons that funded businesses go under.

Second, the business opportunities are simply more plentiful. The bigger you get, the fiercer competition gets. The more money you aim to make, the fewer paths there are to get there. If you want to find your first 10 customers, you can go out and talk to 50 or 100 or 200 people yourself. Every marketing channel is your oyster. None of your competitors feel threatened. The niches you can fill are endless. If you want to go from 1M to 10M customers, however, you need an exceptionally clever strategy, brilliant insights, a lot more resources, and a much higher degree of luck.

It's difficult to actually measure success rates without agreeing on the answer to this question: What counts as someone trying to start a business?

With small indie projects/companies, I'd wager there are a lot more people starting who aren't really serious and never take more than a couple of sincere steps. They might lower your perception of the success rate, especially compared to VC-funded companies if your denominator there only includes those who've actually raised a round. More people fail tryouts for the high school basketball teams than tryouts for the NBA. People filter themselves.

But I assure you that, if you're committed to the task, your chances of succeeding with an indie business are much, much higher than 0.1%.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of company or culture is that, when someone asks for help from a group and no one volunteers to even suggest to them a person that would be the best candidate to help them? I've never been at such a company and I hope I never will.

Sometimes the person who knew how to make it all work has left. Such is the plight of the maintenance programmer.

True, but if the person who knows that code leaves, it's the manager's job to designate someone else to be responsible for that code.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#770
post #29

> I drastically reduced the time developers spent repairing those failures, but there were no metrics that tracked developer time. For several jobs in a row, I've felt that helping others on a team is undervalued and under-recorded. I've been planning to implement the "assist" metric, similar to basketball, on my own team for a while. The idea would be something along the lines of everyone gets a set of assist points…

I academia, if you're a PhD student that writes the paper, you're the "first author", but anyone who helps you do research or process data or other contributions is a "second author". I think that's a better system, because one person may have 2 first author publications and 3 second author publications. Another person may have just 1 first author publication but 12 second author publications. So you can weigh and ev…

This system is actually designed to disincentivize assistance because only first author publications will net you scientific credits when it comes to jobs or funding.
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