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Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

mtlynch.io

701–710 of 783 posts

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#701
post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, just to make sure we are on the same page, are you in agreement that this wasn't politics, but perhaps a disagreement in the roles and responsibilities of a manager and an engineer and what an engineer is expected to do at google? I just want to make sure we're on the same page on that, which was the crux of my point. But as to your point, on the roles and responsibilities of managers and engineers, I mostly a…

> shipping projects on time, and under budget, especially when they are large in scope and involve complex technologies or large teams that you've led, and especially when those projects have impact on the company's bottom line, those project are considered major impact and and those engineers are amply rewarded Wasn't the point of the article that the Grunt work that has to be done and makes things better for everyo…

Disclaimer: manager at Google.

You make an interesting point, and I'd like to suggest an alternative lens to view it from, as a thought experiment. Let's say company X values work that benefits company X, and that's why they hired you and pay your salary. You've given two examples of promotion rationale, one in which you clearly and objectively demonstrated the impact of the work. And the other, speculative, as you say. Now speculative implies not necessarily real -- it's possible that your guess about how much it will probably save could turn out to be wrong. If you don't have a way to measure this, how do you know that it's the case? It feels good to refactor the code, but just consider for a moment the possibility that you could travel through time and see the future results of current behavior. What if you fast-forward and discover that refactoring that code had no benefit? Now return to the current time: is it actually worth doing? If you're spending time refactoring that code at the expense of developing the feature? Maybe this is why company X prefers to promote people based on actual impact rather than speculation.

Perhaps another solution here is to look for ways to measure the impact of that refactoring. Surely your bugs go through some kind of bug tracker, and you would be able to count the before and the after? Is there no line on no graph anywhere that shows an improvement attributable to the refactoring? Can peers at least speak to how crappy the code was before and how much easier it is to work with now? Perhaps the new employee got up to speed in record time because of it? If, at the end of the day, there's absolutely no way to show that this work was valuable, then perhaps... and here's the part we don't like to think about as engineers... perhaps it wasn't all that valuable. Here's the part we like to think about even worse: you could spend 6 months of your career working really hard on something that turns out to be a dud. And it may be entirely rational that you don't get a promotion on the back of that work.

I'm not saying this is how Google works, or describing any particular situation, but I find it valuable to consider different points of view.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just clicking on your profile I see you work in London. From what I can tell most programmers don't get paid 'ludicrous amounts' there. Though maybe you have a rare role, or maybe you just have a very low threshold for what you consider ludicrous.

You are correct about the tech industry here (low salaries relative to US) but developers working in finance in London make comparable money to Bay Area tech firms. People routinely get paid £100k straight out of university to write code in London, just not in the tech scene. Total comp in the financial sector with 5 years experience is commonly £200k. Which is not 'ludicrous' but more than you might imagine from see…

That's not true as such. £100k with no experience is very hard to achieve, even with long-term comp. Maybe if you work at an algo trading company and get paid by the performance of your algorithms. But then it's more like being self-employed (they just provide seed money and some basic salary).

Total comp of £200k/year is clearly possible but also just on the investment side (not writing software for support systems) and usually involves some risk (i.e. income is volatile). Finance easily pays 2x that of tech in London but only because tech doesn't pay very well. A lot of startups pay programmers not more than you'd get with any other office job which is clearly not comparable with the US.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a manager of some kind were to notice the Slack messages and ping someone specific to help, that would be a perfect example of the kind of management that is so sorely lacking at so many companies. Many employees are too burned, or proud, to even put out an SOS... so a cry for help is actually a gift to management. If only it were someone’s job to think for a few minutes each day about each employee and notice if…

Why not both? I cringed when I read OP's comment where he spammed "I'm completely blocked" in the chat without asking for specifics. What a complete lack of individual ownership. Even the best manager can't help somebody who is unwilling to help themselves. Source: am a manager.

> I cringed when I read OP's comment where he spammed "I'm completely blocked" in the chat without asking for specifics.

You actually expected that what I wrote was a literal quote from the only thing I ever said during those days? It probably was something more like:

"Tried to run project X but kept getting error Y. I tried to figure out where it comes from but it seems to missing some kind of value it pulls from somewhere. Tried every step in the README and installed twice. I think the information in the README is incomplete and there's another step. Nobody else had to use this repo before here so the guys here can't help me out either. Can you help me out @colleagueFromTheUS1 or @colleagueFromTheUS2?"

After 48 hours I get very specific about being completely blocked and that I have exhausted every way thinkable to get it running. So nobody would be living in the fantasy the problem was going away by just ignoring it long enough.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#704
post #72
post #29

> I drastically reduced the time developers spent repairing those failures, but there were no metrics that tracked developer time. For several jobs in a row, I've felt that helping others on a team is undervalued and under-recorded. I've been planning to implement the "assist" metric, similar to basketball, on my own team for a while. The idea would be something along the lines of everyone gets a set of assist points…

I worked in a remote team once helping a company in Seattle (that perhaps had a bit of a jock culture problem). I could be stuck for days because following the README in a repo just wasn't enough to get the project to compile and run. Every standup I was telling "I'm completely blocked for the last two days because I cannot run the repo, so I cannot run any tests and at the moment I'm doing absolutely nothing.". To b…

Most jobs I've been at if you're the first new hire in a while you are going to experience something like this, and it's important that you spend a lot of time adding to the documentation to make it easier for the next new hire.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#705
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a remote team once helping a company in Seattle (that perhaps had a bit of a jock culture problem). I could be stuck for days because following the README in a repo just wasn't enough to get the project to compile and run. Every standup I was telling "I'm completely blocked for the last two days because I cannot run the repo, so I cannot run any tests and at the moment I'm doing absolutely nothing.". To b…

Isn't the Toyota's idea of Kanban supposed to alleviate this? As in if there is some problem with the production line, anyone can push the stop button, and everyone assists?

I don't think calling an all stop would necessarily help. Usually people just ask for help at standups

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say for sure but your mention of 'CSS' makes me guess this is a web application, in which case you should be able to read the source code and figure out how to build it. If people aren't helping you then according to their cost benefit matrix it isn't worth it. Maybe they are supposed to be doing other work and they can't calculate how many hours they would have to spend helping you. Maybe they are just afrai…

>your mention of 'CSS' makes me guess this is a web application, in which case you should be able to read the source code and figure out how to build it pfft. If it's a web app (from 2015-2018) I have even more sympathy for the OP than on any other platform. Here's an example from last year-ish: * Get repo from external contractor (let's ignore the 1+ weeks trying to get an install of Git approved) * Try to get npm w…

Sounds like you're working in a bank or old school corporation.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. A manager should be skeptical to ensure everyone is pulling their weight and being truthful.

If they don't trust the employee they need to fire them.

I agree with you that employees that you cannot trust should be fired. Skepticism doesn’t necessarily mean lack of trust. It’s possible to trust dishonest people and without a skeptical view to be aware that people may be dishonest, even in small ways, it is easy to fall into that trap of trusting good liars.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#708
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the way you measure teamwork is at the team level by having a consisitent set of team-level metrics the entire team is judged against. This means individual personality and career path variations don’t matter as much. Interesting management approach. My questions are: 1. How do you account for new team members in a team's metrics? A new junior dev will take some time to become productive so do you add the n…

1. I normally just dedicate sprint points to training up new resources for a few sprints. I’m not so heavy-handed with the internal policies so it’s up to each team how they do it, but most have some form of pull request review / gating process. 2. I don’t! Well, not directly. Team metrics usually have some impact on bonus money and raises, but that’s all based on budget so it’s not consistent year-to-year. Metrics s…

Good points but the thing that will prevent adoption of your approach is the element of variability.

Businesses don't handle processes that produce variable outcomes very well since it opens them up to risk. Or stated another way, businesses love the notion of fungible employees and a one-size-fits all process to shepard those employees.

Fungible employees makes sense if you are in manufacturing where low skill workers are the norm, but not so much if you are in the knowledge industry, where there are variations in the skills each employee excels at.

IMHO, the dynamics of knowledge work is similar to a team sport like soccer/football but businesses would prefer that the dynamics be similar to manufacturing line workers.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#709
post #329

I can understand author’s motives very well. I also started off in a corporation, it wasn’t google but it was a large organization where politics played a major role in one’s carreer. I had a very good friend, an architect who worked there for over 10 years, he was excellent in corporate politics and taught me a whole lot about it. The bottom line is that unless you have metrics to back up your claims (whatever they…

Thanks for reading and for sharing your story. That's very encouraging to hear.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#710
post #501
post #2

Author here. Happy to answer any questions about the post or about my experience at Google.

Are you familiar with the writing of Patrick Mackenzie? patio11 on hackernews, kalzumeus.org. His career trajectory has been similar to your story, in that he was a line engineer who went independent. The think that makes patrick great, though, is that he took the time to write up all his lessons in a blog that is essentially a how-to guide for engineers who want to make the move from "I just write code" to "I am a s…

Yeah, I actually discovered Patrick McKenzie through Indie Hackers. He was one of the early podcast guests:

https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/013-patrick-mckenzie-of...

I am very much influenced by his story. I agree that he does a great job documenting what he learned.

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