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YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

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Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't stop discrimination without addressing the long-term systemic effects of pervasive discrimination.

This sounds awfully like we had to destroy the village to save the village. No one expects it will be easy to end discrimination, but it is hard to see how it will be solved by piling on more discrimination.

The phrase "we had to burn the village in order to save it" was uttered by the officer who perpetrated the My Lai massacre, and it was an unironic paraphrasing of "better dead than red". Nothing about addressing the past and ongoing effects of long-term discrimination requires destroying anything. If you think affirmative action is reverse discrimination, then fine: there are other ways to address systemic disparities.

Taking your boot off someone's throat doesn't make them your equal when they're still on the ground.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that external party isn't also biased?

They can only be biased if they know race/gender/etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment

Ok, yeah, a third party with cleaned info would help. :)

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#323
post #216
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Registered nurses: 90% women, median $68k Nurse Practitioners: 92% women, median $107k Veterinarians: 83% women, median $88k All data from BLS.

This is good, but is easily explained by the reflected percentages with various doctor specialties. What's the technology equivalent?

I think it's better to compare whole labor subgroups:

[1] Computer and mathematical occupations (engineers, programmers, etc):

> 4,804k jobs, $78k median, 25.5% women, 7% projected growth

[2] Healthcare practitioners and technical occupations (doctors, nurses, technicians):

> 9,141k jobs, $63k median, 75.0% women, 18% projected growth

If we imagine the ideal scenario of employment across all jobs being 50/50 men/women then we need to add 2.3 million women to tech and 4.5 million men to healthcare. Arguably, the lack of men entering the healthcare field (good-paying jobs, growing need) is at least as important as the lack of women entering technology, but why do we constantly talk about getting more women in to tech but not men in to healthcare?

[1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/home.htm

[2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/home.ht...

[3] Percent women info: https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#324
post #323
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is good, but is easily explained by the reflected percentages with various doctor specialties. What's the technology equivalent?

I think it's better to compare whole labor subgroups: [1] Computer and mathematical occupations (engineers, programmers, etc): > 4,804k jobs, $78k median, 25.5% women, 7% projected growth [2] Healthcare practitioners and technical occupations (doctors, nurses, technicians): > 9,141k jobs, $63k median, 75.0% women, 18% projected growth If we imagine the ideal scenario of employment across all jobs being 50/50 men/wome…

> why do we constantly talk about getting more women in to tech but not men in to healthcare?

Who is we? HN? If so, the answer to that is obvious.

Your comparison needs more nuance, in my view. If health care had 100 people, 80 nurses (70% of which are women) and 20 doctors (10% of which are women) then you'd have a breakdown like the following:

Women: 56 nurses, 2 doctors

Men: 24 nurses, 18 doctors

If you said the median doctor has a salary of 200K and a nurse 65k, men are paid 5160K and women are paid 4040K. In other words men are paid 56% of the total healthcare salary despite only representing 42% of the workforce. So despite the majority of health care professionals being women, men are still overrepresented in terms of salary, and in a way, influence. This example obviously uses fake numbers, but is the crux of the problem.

Money allocation is more accurate than job allocation imo. Moreover, if you were to total men's salaries/wealth and compare it to women's wealth it would be overwhelming in favor of men. Discussions surrounding specific job types and their gender allocation are irrelevant and a distraction. If men and women represented the same amount of total wealth in the US I think these discussions would be more meaningful, but the disparity in wealth is reflected influence and consequently opportunity. So, yeah, more men will be reflected with higher percentages of the higher income opportunities. This is reflected in the BLS data:

Employees vs. Managers

Nurses vs. Doctors

Teachers vs. School Administrators

Business owners

etc. etc.

The issue has never been that men have more of the jobs. The issue is that men have all of the money. That's why people are talking about tech, and say, not education. The job discussion (particularly within tech) is just a way to attempt to solve a tiny aspect of the problem.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that the reason is that screening for basic math competency could be discrimination, because it reduces the chance of hiring for minorities who do less well at math testing. If it genuinely screens for basic math, then there's nothing racist about it. artificially discriminate in the opposite direction and suppress valid criteria that are statistically unfavorable to minorities. Eroding meritocracy is ul…

> If it genuinely screens for basic math, then there's nothing racist about it. Lets say that Google added a test for its engineers, that screened for writing and communication skills. Think, SAT verbal questions or something. And lets say that it just so happens that women are a lot better at SAT verbal questions than men. Would you call that meritocrat, to ask vocabulary questions to software engineers, given that…

This is not analogous to OP without the additional detail that communication skills are 'clearly needed' in the job.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#326
post #15

Last spring, YouTube recruiters were allegedly instructed to cancel interviews with applicants who weren’t female, black or Hispanic, and to “purge entirely” the applications of people who didn’t fit those categories, the lawsuit claims. Anyone from Google or YouTube--or people who applied to work at either org in this time frame--have perspectives to add regarding this claim?

This is incredibly hard to answer fairly, as those who applied and may not have been qualified may now believe they were discriminated against and it's basically impossible to know.

I mean, I've interviewed with google and my application got "lost", when the interview process restarted I identified that I had already been phone screened and the suggestion from the recruiter was: "Oh, ok, I guess we'll follow up in six months".

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that's possible, but I don't think it's reasonable to read this piece in a "post-Damore Google" context.

As far as I can tell, they are still deeply infected by toxic ideologues who will witch-hunt anyone who openly disagrees with their politics. So many of my old classmates did this vehement un-personing of James Damore, even when they had no factual basis for what they were saying. Someday someone should write a play about it. In the meantime, there's "The Drumhead." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjJN08uqt70

People lost their shit over him IRL?

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#328
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand it correctly, it is only discrimination if employer cannot demonstrate the criteria are needed for work performance. Race and gender are not related to performance in most work categories. In the case of body types in sports, they are.

And so are problem-solving skills, relevant experience and education in STEM. Is it anyone's fault that white/asian males happen to have more of it than other groups?

[deleted]

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so are problem-solving skills, relevant experience and education in STEM. Is it anyone's fault that white/asian males happen to have more of it than other groups?

I get relevant experience, but are saying that general problem solving skills are race based?

Experience is not the same as problem-solving skills. And I never said they were "race based".

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#330
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Unfortunately, lazy fixes at clear and prominent decision points are much easier than removing hurdles in, say, the early childhood education system.

This goes beyond a lazy fix. According to another HN commenter here: > under Title VII, the federal antidiscrimination law, employers aren’t allowed to make hiring decisions based on race and gender among other protected classes. The former veteran Google recruiters behind this suit are claiming they were 'instructed to cancel interviews with applicants who weren’t female, black or Hispanic, and to “purge entirely” t…

The entire thing is ridiculous, but I can't help but laugh at how it seems to them that all the different races and cultures have been reduced to being one of: white, asian, black, hispanic. What about Arabs, Persians, Turks, Natives, etc? Would those have gotten rejected as well?
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