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China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

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Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#51

Post by mc32 »

SerLava wrote: post #40
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it had an effect on crime rates? If so, this is interesting. It means crime is predictable based on the inputs the system is measuring. It also means the Chinese AI effort is more fruitful than I expected it to be. If this is reducing crime, then we have a discussion of trade-offs. That is interesting, and potentially nuanced. If it's the latter, however, this is not interesting and there is no reasonable discuss…

>if this is reducing crimes Every apprehension under this program is a crime by any definition other than the arbitrary declaration of an illegitimate regime. It would be absolutely astonishing if the people apprehended were likely to illegally kidnap and hold at least 1 citizen in their basement for at least the length of time that these people are detained. Thus it can pretty much only increase crime.

Not necessarily. If they are capturing these people because they will have committed a crime and that in and of itself is crime then its not reducing crime.

It's possible that once enough people who on balance might commit a crime are arrested or impeded, then crime will indeed decrease.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#52

Post by Nokinside »

aphextron wrote: post #35
cdepman wrote: post #22

We’re on our way there too in the US: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/27/17054740/palantir-predict...

>We’re on our way there too in the US: Fortunately we have something called Habeas Corpus

Habeas Corpus has been suspended several times in US history. Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant and FDR suspended habeas corpus.

Habeas corpus after 9/11 is not what it used to be. ACLU has been fighting several cases of clear violations.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#53

Post by jstarfish »

IntronExon wrote: post #29
45h34jh53k4j wrote: post #15

This will be rolled out further and further, first the rest of China, then other parts of Asia, eventually Europe and the Americas. Strongly resist the rollout of this technology, along with the social credit rating systems. This is like the last chapter of humanity before we stagnate for hundreds of years.

In the US at least, there are probably enough people with a significant number of firearms that it would take a war to make this work. I’m not usually fond of anti-government fanatics, but I have to admit that in extremes they can be useful.

This is not a situation that can (or should) be resolved through violent rebellion.

A violent response would only serve to justify the application of the system, to cut the head off of any leadership structure before it materializes (or just pick off the lone wackos before they cause problems).

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#54

Post by davesque »

anthonyleecook wrote: post #47
cdepman wrote: post #22

We’re on our way there too in the US: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/27/17054740/palantir-predict...

I know there are a lot of clamoring here about ‘oh we are becoming this too and that too’. And it’s a natural reaction: we feel like we cannot change anything about China and how it governs its people, so we try to stigmatize our own government. But the truth of the matter is US government is nowhere near the heavy handed ness of China, and we can deal with China to some degree. We can hold China to its actions. Afte…

I would have agreed with you before November 2016. Now, I'm being completely honest in saying I'm not so sure.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#55

Post by Cacti »

srcmap wrote: post #46
cdepman wrote: post #22

We’re on our way there too in the US: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/27/17054740/palantir-predict...

If someone is taking fly training of commercial jet without wanting to learn how to land the plane, I absolutely want the government to find out why. Same for someone who want to purchase large quality of fertilizer for no real needs.

Do you really think there are 120,000 people in that province that are all making bulk purchases of unneeded fertilizer?

There is just another form of extrajudicial population control. They are using this as a way to justify arbitrarily rounding up people who have long wanted to be free of Chinese rule.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#56

Post by mertd »

srcmap wrote: post #46
cdepman wrote: post #22

We’re on our way there too in the US: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/27/17054740/palantir-predict...

If someone is taking fly training of commercial jet without wanting to learn how to land the plane, I absolutely want the government to find out why. Same for someone who want to purchase large quality of fertilizer for no real needs.

Where is the line? Do you want to sit in an interrogation room for a few hours before you rent a U-Haul?

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#57

Post by ejlangev »

It's a shame we moved a lot of the US industrial base to an authoritarian and potentially hostile country like China. A bit scary to think of the generation or two of people who won't have the knowledge to manufacture things should they ever need to because of conflict in some form. Seems like it reduces any leverage the US has for holding China accountable for much that it does.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#58

Post by leggomylibro »

dekhn wrote: post #42
leggomylibro wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies which name themselves after dystopic objects or ideals with a 'nod and wink' always creep the living hell out of me. There's never a good answer when they inevitably ask, "well what did you think was going to happen?" http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Palant%C3%ADri

the palantiri weren't dystopic objects. they were positive items used for communication until some of them were captured. I think the name of the company is highly apt.

Fair enough, I'm not very steeped in the intricacies of Lord of the Rings. I got the feeling that it was the nature of their power and omniscience that corrupted most individuals who used them, sort of like the Ring, but that could be completely wrong.

Re: China using big data to detain people before crime is committed

#59

Post by IntronExon »

jstarfish wrote: post #53
IntronExon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least, there are probably enough people with a significant number of firearms that it would take a war to make this work. I’m not usually fond of anti-government fanatics, but I have to admit that in extremes they can be useful.

This is not a situation that can (or should) be resolved through violent rebellion. A violent response would only serve to justify the application of the system, to cut the head off of any leadership structure before it materializes (or just pick off the lone wackos before they cause problems).

If it came to violence then disaster would already have struck, but there is a deterrent effect when a statistically significant portion of your population would fight to prevent it. The cost moves from, “pass some laws, enforce as usual,” to “commit to atrocity, and massive civilian losses.”
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