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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#201

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ythn wrote: post #30
briga wrote: post #20

From the outside looking in it seems like Xi has been doing a great job leading China. Are there any serious contenders for Chinese leadership like Navalny in Russia? Not to mention that historically there have been many excellent leaders who rules for decades. An arbitrary term limit can be useful to prevent corruption, but it's also the reason for the fiasco that is Washington in 2018.

> Not to mention that historically there have been many excellent leaders who rules for decades There are probably more historical examples of not-so-excellent (incompetent, evil, tyrannical, etc) leaders ruling for decades than excellent ones. The problem with tyranny is that the only way out is revolution. You may have an excellent dictator for decades, but then he dies and his son/crony/not-so-excellent replacemen…

Well, in fairness, there are probably more historical examples of not-so-excellent leaders than excellent ones, regardless of whether they ruled for decades. The problem is, if you've got a not-so-excellent one and you're stuck with him/her for decades, that's a really big chunk of your life...

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#202

Post by tonylinn80 »

Slansitartop wrote: post #186
tonylinn80 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed. However, if that actually work as designed, it's not ent…

The US Federal Government, as originally envisioned, had much less direct representation, with the House of Representatives being the only directly elected body. The Senate was elected by the State governments, the President by a group of directly-elected "electors," and the Supreme Court appointed/confirmed as it is now. The vulnerability of a democracy to a demagogue who would do things like run on a platform of "e…

I believe you're right. What I am against is really just pushing China towards American style democracy right now, at this moment. As one of the reasons, the danger of "elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force" right now is not hypothetical, based on what I know about other fellow Chinese, this is a very real possibility.

We also don't want anything like the deadlocks in American government for sure.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#203

Post by balthasar »

protoplant wrote: post #200
balthasar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Perhaps it was inevitable. For what reasons though?

Economists believe that hyperinflations are caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than by borrowing or by increasing taxation). --wikipedia. Eli5 Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it. People left then oil crashed and they had too many promises to pay for

Indeed nationalization of national resources as an explanation of economic collapse is something a five year old would say.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#204

Post by balthasar »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #194
balthasar wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chavez did none of these things. Is your knowledge of history so shallow that you must bring up Hitler appro to nothing every chance that you get?

Chavez definitely dismantled democracy in Venezuela. (If you want to be technical, he started the project, and Maduro finished it.) Specifically, vote count manipulation, the Supreme Court refusing to allow opposition legislatures to be seated, the constitutional committee stripping the legislature of its power... that's dismantling democracy.

Outside observers never saw or reported voting manipulation during Chavez's time. Your lie is easily disproved with a bit of research and I encourage readers to do so. I'm not familiar with the Court/Constitutional Committee issues that your raise but I assume they are post Chavez.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#205

Post by briga »

IntronExon wrote: post #162
briga wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can argue that any of those rulers weakened their societies--unless you completely disregard historical fact. I was just questioning the dogma that having leaders in power for multiple terms is automatically bad. I'm open to the possibility that Xi is a bad leader--I'm no expert on China--but it seems that China today is a better place than when he came in to power. I guess people don't agree with m…

Cough Within 4 years of Solon's departure, the old social rifts re-appeared, but with some new complications. There were irregularities in the new governmental procedures, elected officials sometimes refused to stand down from their posts and occasionally important posts were left vacant. It has even been said that some people blamed Solon for their troubles.[127] Eventually one of Solon's relatives, Peisistratos, en…

It seems like you're missing the forest for the trees here. I would recommend Durant's history of civilization if you would like a detailed account of what these people accomplished. I also encourage you to compare these leaders with the other rulers of the day.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#206

Post by IntronExon »

briga wrote: post #205
IntronExon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cough Within 4 years of Solon's departure, the old social rifts re-appeared, but with some new complications. There were irregularities in the new governmental procedures, elected officials sometimes refused to stand down from their posts and occasionally important posts were left vacant. It has even been said that some people blamed Solon for their troubles.[127] Eventually one of Solon's relatives, Peisistratos, en…

It seems like you're missing the forest for the trees here. I would recommend Durant's history of civilization if you would like a detailed account of what these people accomplished. I also encourage you to compare these leaders with the other rulers of the day.

Have you really lost sight of what this this thread is about? It’s not your view of historical figures in their time, it’s about your endorsement of autocracy in general and Xi in particular. If we’re at the point of judging the rulers you picked by only the standards of their day, I’d say you’ve ceded what point you had.

It is kind of pleasant to realize that you were just arguing for the sake of it though, rather than some bizarre conviction in autocratic stability.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#207

Post by Slansitartop »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #202
Slansitartop wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Federal Government, as originally envisioned, had much less direct representation, with the House of Representatives being the only directly elected body. The Senate was elected by the State governments, the President by a group of directly-elected "electors," and the Supreme Court appointed/confirmed as it is now. The vulnerability of a democracy to a demagogue who would do things like run on a platform of "e…

I believe you're right. What I am against is really just pushing China towards American style democracy right now, at this moment. As one of the reasons, the danger of "elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force" right now is not hypothetical, based on what I know about other fellow Chinese, this is a very real possibility. We also don't want anything like the deadlocks in American government for sure.

Deadlocks aren't actually all that bad, in my humble opinion. They encourage stability when the major factions disagree strongly but have similar levels of support. The alternative is whip-lash policy changes as control changes, which I think would be much worse.

I think the real problem in America is too much centralization. If more policy was made locally, it could be adapted to match diverse local conditions and attitudes, and the preferences of other regions wouldn't be as threatening. Unfortunately the winner-take-all aspect of centralized politics makes the sides more entrenched.

Do you think the current Chinese government is helping or hurting with the attitudes that lead to the appeal of "elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force"? Seems to me there's some danger of things going badly if they don't prep the ground for democracy and lose control somehow.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#208

Post by protoplant »

balthasar wrote: post #203
protoplant wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economists believe that hyperinflations are caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than by borrowing or by increasing taxation). --wikipedia. Eli5 Their economy was mostly oil, they seized assets of oil companies extracting it. People left then oil crashed and they had too many promises to pay for

Indeed nationalization of national resources as an explanation of economic collapse is something a five year old would say.

It was not simply that they "nationalized oil" in my example, as the resources we're already state owned. You seem to not be serious with your comments.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#209

Post by sctb »

davesque wrote: post #56
tonylinn80 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not surprising at all. In fact, many of the Chinese expats (visitors of mitbbs.com) are pro-china in general. They become less agreeing to western values after spending years in US. (I am one of those examples myself)

I'm inclined to believe you're not legit.

> Don't accuse others of astroturfing or shillage. Email us and we'll look into it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#210

Post by briga »

briga wrote: post #205
IntronExon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cough Within 4 years of Solon's departure, the old social rifts re-appeared, but with some new complications. There were irregularities in the new governmental procedures, elected officials sometimes refused to stand down from their posts and occasionally important posts were left vacant. It has even been said that some people blamed Solon for their troubles.[127] Eventually one of Solon's relatives, Peisistratos, en…

It seems like you're missing the forest for the trees here. I would recommend Durant's history of civilization if you would like a detailed account of what these people accomplished. I also encourage you to compare these leaders with the other rulers of the day.

Apparently. I'm just having a conversation. Have a pleasant day.
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