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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#161

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #88
balthasar wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so quick to write them off. A large percentage of the world respects the Chinese government which usually acts in their own economic interest is stable over the long term. Whereas in the US the government does nothing but enact poor economic and social policies as well as saber rattling or war every time a right wing president is elected.

Well, unless you are Vietnam, the rest of SE Asia, Japan, or Taiwan. China can and does rattle sabers also.

Or India, or South Korea, or the Philipines..

China has quarrels with almost every nation that surrounds it. Even nations too far way to be affected by the sabre rattling are starting to question China and their influence (ie the debate in Australia right now).

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#162

Post by IntronExon »

briga wrote: post #140
phyller wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point that is being made is that regardless of whether or not that particular ruler is effective, in the long term they have weakened their society because they have broken the system that ensures that capable people/groups peacefully succeed each other to power.

I don't think you can argue that any of those rulers weakened their societies--unless you completely disregard historical fact. I was just questioning the dogma that having leaders in power for multiple terms is automatically bad. I'm open to the possibility that Xi is a bad leader--I'm no expert on China--but it seems that China today is a better place than when he came in to power. I guess people don't agree with m…

Cough

Within 4 years of Solon's departure, the old social rifts re-appeared, but with some new complications. There were irregularities in the new governmental procedures, elected officials sometimes refused to stand down from their posts and occasionally important posts were left vacant. It has even been said that some people blamed Solon for their troubles.[127] Eventually one of Solon's relatives, Peisistratos, ended the factionalism by force, thus instituting an unconstitutionally gained tyranny.

And

... Charlemagne's grandsons broke the Carolingian Empire in civil war.

Sounds weaker to me. It seems like you’re somewhat lazily working your way backwards from a foregoing conclusion. Is it really any wonder we don’t agree with you?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#163

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

yusuke10 wrote: post #35
briga wrote: post #20

From the outside looking in it seems like Xi has been doing a great job leading China. Are there any serious contenders for Chinese leadership like Navalny in Russia? Not to mention that historically there have been many excellent leaders who rules for decades. An arbitrary term limit can be useful to prevent corruption, but it's also the reason for the fiasco that is Washington in 2018.

> From the outside looking in Exactly, there's your problem. China is suffering from 300%+ debt, capital outflows (hidden, unreported), fake gdp growth (several provinces have claimed 20-30% fake revenue), demographics time bomb, middle income trap, shrinking population (800M estimated in 2100), corruption, pollution, belligerent behaviors against all its neighbors (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Australia, Ind…

Chinas rise has been remarkable, and it's great so many people have been able to lift themselves out of poverty. But we really should temper our expectations, and our view of just how well China is doing, which is often sensationalized. The above is just what manages to make it past the censors as well.

I'm not worried about a superpower overtaking the US, I'm worried about a sharp economic collapse causing it to lash out. I'm worried about the global economic consequences if that were to happen.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#164

Post by peterwwillis »

This seems like a fun new opportunity to find new ways to avoid censors.

One way would be to seed messages or websites with pre-loaded meanings, and use new, unrelated comments to refer to them. Example of a social media feed:

8/15/2017: "Today at noon in the square."

9/15/2015: "I think it's evil and corrupt and we can not stand for it!"

10/22/2017: "The government has taken a new decision today that affects us all."

11/10/2017: "We must protest this injustice!"

2/27/2018: "10-22-2017 + 9-15-2017 + 11-10-2017 + 8/15/2017"

Obviously this is clunky, but in theory you could chain together random bits of other people's messages to post a new one, and a censorship bot would have to be written to merge them all together to filter them; if some of these were behind logins on other sites, this could be very difficult. You could also make them less literal and more made up of memes and concepts with hidden meanings.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#165

Post by etrevino »

irq-1 wrote: post #124
etrevino wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you say this. Germany and Italy didn't collapse-- they were conquered. The Soviet Union did collapse, it's true, but it collapsed because of external pressures and sclerotic bureaucracy causing an inability to adjust to internal problems. In all three cases there was an external force contributing to the problem. However, there's no reason to assume that China's authoritarian rule will collapse as we…

South Korea had decades of dictatorship with a relatively easy transition to democracy and liberal capitalism.

That's true. It's the maintenance of that democracy that's hard, though. Plus, it was by no means certain that the country would become a democracy.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#166

Post by jsonderulio »

mitchty wrote: post #153
elago wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen it is a valid argument because those "other guys" is our own country. It's not "don't go after those guys", but "take care of our own problems first". This way, when offering solutions to other oppressive countries we wouldn't look like hypocrites. Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise?

> Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise? Yes, they would be the ideal person to give that advice.

Boom nailed it. I just don't want them correcting my form.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#167

Post by Slansitartop »

daodedickinson wrote: post #132
phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

99% of the population could oppose a policy, but no individual could never know they aren't alone and they'll be disarmed against disciplinary power requiring fewer and fewer people at the top to control the rest with machines. Just a handful of decision makers controls search results, the new Google shopping censorship of the last two days, the massive purge of even very moderate conservative YouTube channels over t…

Which makes it all the more important to maintain offline connections, and resist the pressure to include the online world in everything.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#168

Post by jerry40 »

etrevino wrote: post #78
jakecrouch wrote: post #62

This is why the US should not worry about China as a long-term economic threat - authoritarianism has never worked. The Soviet Union, 1930s Germany and Italy, all collapsed. I think the Chinese realize this and are pessemistic about their own future. The Constitution was designed to make the US Government as weak as possible, because a strong government ultimately turns on its people.

I'm not sure why you say this. Germany and Italy didn't collapse-- they were conquered. The Soviet Union did collapse, it's true, but it collapsed because of external pressures and sclerotic bureaucracy causing an inability to adjust to internal problems. In all three cases there was an external force contributing to the problem. However, there's no reason to assume that China's authoritarian rule will collapse as we…

External pressure as one of reasons of USSR collapse? Come on, really. You can't be serious. It had lived under much more strong pressure more than 70 years before authority decided to demolish the union. What pressure do we speak about? Commodity prices decrease? I can't believe the west is involved in the free market manipulations though. Unthinkable.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#169

Post by Slansitartop »

jjaredsimpson wrote: post #69
aaron-lebo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scares me more is the cheerleading and defense of this in the West, and the way this is voluntarily happening here. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J24C0TI This is a telescreen.

Anonymity paired with speech is a new modern invention which didn't always exist. I don't this it is necessarily true that that kinds of speech is always for the ultimate good. I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior. It just seems like the modern version of sitting around a fire face to face and not being an asshole.

> I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior.

Someone hasn't learned from history. The impulse you're feeling is tempting, but it never ends will.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#170

Post by princekolt »

balthasar wrote: post #151
zentiggr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typo there with _rose_ quality of life in Venezuela? Pretty sure we've watched that 'democratic' experiment fail spectacularly, at least what news I know of the economy and living conditions in general seem very poor at best. Failed state comes to mind.

What is the link between Chavez's policies and Venezuela's current economic condition?

Maduro served both as a Foreign Affairs Minister and as a Vice President under Chavez. He is basically maintaining the government project of Chavez.
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