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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#121

Post by jack9 »

jakecrouch wrote: post #62

This is why the US should not worry about China as a long-term economic threat - authoritarianism has never worked. The Soviet Union, 1930s Germany and Italy, all collapsed. I think the Chinese realize this and are pessemistic about their own future. The Constitution was designed to make the US Government as weak as possible, because a strong government ultimately turns on its people.

> authoritarianism has never worked.

Neither has democracy, depending on the definition of "worked". Try to narrow it down.

> The Constitution was designed to make the US Government as weak as possible

That is a premise, not a truism. Every democracy has, in time, given in to an appeal by the masses to (either by dupe or passively) give the government more power until it's not relatively weak.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#122

Post by JumpCrisscross »

antichronology wrote: post #29
ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

I wonder if it will have some sort of long term impact on the economy. Is there a way of measuring relative government authoritarianism on economic development of a nation?

Political stability encourages growth [1]. The form of government seems largely irrelevant [2]. China is moving from a stable if novel mode (small-group democratic dictatorship) to an unstable mode (single-leader dictatorship).

[1] https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4553024/alesina_...

[2] https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdf/10.1257/jep.7.3.51

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#123

Post by liberte82 »

ericd wrote: post #107
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there's Singapore. Ruled by an authoritarian, gum hating despot who provides nice civic infrastructure for the populace.

When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. The problem is that that great king's successor is probably not also great, and under a bad ruler, it's among the worst forms of government, and that bad king can last for your entire lifetime. It's never spectacularly efficient, but the US' form of democracy is meant to be much lower variance. I think it's a good tradeoff.

> When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government.

citation needed

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#124

Post by irq-1 »

etrevino wrote: post #78
jakecrouch wrote: post #62

This is why the US should not worry about China as a long-term economic threat - authoritarianism has never worked. The Soviet Union, 1930s Germany and Italy, all collapsed. I think the Chinese realize this and are pessemistic about their own future. The Constitution was designed to make the US Government as weak as possible, because a strong government ultimately turns on its people.

I'm not sure why you say this. Germany and Italy didn't collapse-- they were conquered. The Soviet Union did collapse, it's true, but it collapsed because of external pressures and sclerotic bureaucracy causing an inability to adjust to internal problems. In all three cases there was an external force contributing to the problem. However, there's no reason to assume that China's authoritarian rule will collapse as we…

South Korea had decades of dictatorship with a relatively easy transition to democracy and liberal capitalism.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#125

Post by tonylinn80 »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #81
sidcool wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elaborate.

It'll take too much time to talk in details. Democracy in general in better than totalitarian in general, i don't disagree with that. However, establishing American democracy in China at this moment, most likely won't bring anything good or solve any problems China is facing now. And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll g…

The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed.

However, if that actually work as designed, it's not entirely non-democratic, and it's a form I think would be a better fit for China at least in foreseeable future.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#126

Post by phyller »

briga wrote: post #51
IntronExon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too yearn for the good old days of the Massacre of Verden, and forced religious conversion under penalty of death. ...and a bunch of Roman emperors. I prefer modern politics to that of imperial Rome, thanks. Oh, and Solon. Arguably a truly great man, but um... After completing his work of reform, Solon surrendered his extraordinary authority and left the country. According to Herodotus[123] the country was bound by…

Even the greatest emperor isn't going to fix all of the ills of society. What matters is what they can achieve during their time in power. If tomorrow some all-knowing wise leader were be elected to power in China, do you really think there would be no problems? That corruption and violence would vanish? You have to look at the historical context of their reigns.

I think the point that is being made is that regardless of whether or not that particular ruler is effective, in the long term they have weakened their society because they have broken the system that ensures that capable people/groups peacefully succeed each other to power.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#127

Post by mygo »

coldtea wrote: post #101
phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

> It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. This is perhaps because of several things: 1) That's the way "the rest of the world's" governments and corporate interests want their own countries to go, and have been pushing towards since decades. The rest of the world's leaders (most of them) could not care less for the lip service they p…

It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#128

Post by joe_the_user »

phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

"The rest of world" occasionally complains about China's dictatorial measures as it occasionally complains about dictatorial measures in other areas.

The only time there have been angry crusades against a given dictatorship (NAZIs, Soviets, etc) is when a given group of nations view these dictatorships as enemies. Which isn't to say these areas weren't dictatorships but that it's always taken more than dictatorship to get the ire of even those nations claiming to care most about democracy and human rights.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#129

Post by tonylinn80 »

jeffcore wrote: post #117
tonylinn80 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll take too much time to talk in details. Democracy in general in better than totalitarian in general, i don't disagree with that. However, establishing American democracy in China at this moment, most likely won't bring anything good or solve any problems China is facing now. And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll g…

It seems like your real issue isn't with "American democracy", but democracy in general. It doesn't appear you have much faith in the Chinese people exercising power directly or through elected representatives.

I'd totally support that if it's working as designed. Having a level of indirectness is very different from having everyone vote for who becomes president.

NPC has thousands of members, and I'd expect them to be much more educated and rational than general public overall (again, if the system actually works). They could be elected for various reasons and do not need majority vote of the entire population to become a member of NPC. Their opinions would be a lot more diverse.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#130

Post by [deleted] »

Slansitartop wrote: post #118
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan China has long-range nukes. Behind every treat is political resolve. Would America risk lighting its cities on fire to defend a country across the ocean? (I hope so. But I'm not sure.)

> China has long-range nukes. Behind every [th]reat is political resolve. Would America risk lighting its cities on fire to defend a country across the ocean? (I hope so. But I'm not sure.) The same could be said of China. Would it risk MAD by invading Japan? The US could be spurred to act due to the threat of eventual isolation and defeat after its allies are picked off. That fear is what fueled the regional wars li…

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