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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#131

Post by ericd »

liberte82 wrote: post #123
ericd wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. The problem is that that great king's successor is probably not also great, and under a bad ruler, it's among the worst forms of government, and that bad king can last for your entire lifetime. It's never spectacularly efficient, but the US' form of democracy is meant to be much lower variance. I think it's a good tradeoff.

> When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. citation needed

What kind of citation would you put there?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#132

Post by daodedickinson »

phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

99% of the population could oppose a policy, but no individual could never know they aren't alone and they'll be disarmed against disciplinary power requiring fewer and fewer people at the top to control the rest with machines. Just a handful of decision makers controls search results, the new Google shopping censorship of the last two days, the massive purge of even very moderate conservative YouTube channels over the past few weeks... the only difference here is that the rulers skewing our discourse are "private". One "engineer" at a computer can silence the voices of over a billion people, whether in China or California.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#133

Post by phyller »

staplers wrote: post #119
phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

If they choose, these ultimately government controlled companies can easily make it so you can't buy things anymore, you are not trusted anywhere America already has that, it's called a credit score and it does this exact thing.

Your credit score isn't affected by what you post on Hacker News. Your credit score is affected if you don't pay your bills. You'll find it harder to get credit in the future. I don't see the relation with state sponsored suppression.

Also, you can still buy things with cash. In China they use these apps to pay for things, you can't buy some things with cash.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#134

Post by natecavanaugh »

My core belief has always been that as long as China has this culture of authoritarian and heavy handed internet control, it will always have a self-imposed limit on their ability to compete. I understand they have a deep rooted value of stability and that they believe they're keeping their society from running off the rails, but if they were to allow their citizens to contribute more to the direction of the government, then the end of the U.S. hegemony would not just be a possibility, but practically a foregone conclusion (some seem to think it already is inevitable, but it's been predicted for so long now, it's starting to feel like the forever predicted rise of Linux on the desktop).

However, I'd be curious to hear good reasons for China's economy to dominate the world stage even with this sort of thing constantly happening. I can kind of understand the brute-force approach of just pure production from a gigantic population, but India has a comparable population size, but not a comparable economy, so I tend to think that a large population doesn't guarantee a large economic output.

There is so much innovation I see happening in the tech of China, but their fear of their own citizenry and fear of transparency make me think they'll stay behind their potential.

This could all be my own Western bias for democracy, so I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#135

Post by martimarkov »

antichronology wrote: post #37
woolvalley wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China was already an authoritarian nation, how much of an effective difference would this make?

provide an economic argument for not implementing additional authoritarian policies. Seems that these decisions are incredibly hard to measure. For example how much did Turkey's economy suffer from the previous failed coup?

That for me personally only strengthens my belief that it was orchestrated.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#136

Post by aaron-lebo »

coldtea wrote: post #101
phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

> It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. This is perhaps because of several things: 1) That's the way "the rest of the world's" governments and corporate interests want their own countries to go, and have been pushing towards since decades. The rest of the world's leaders (most of them) could not care less for the lip service they p…

Don't disagree with you that nobody else is very different. Way too many "progressive" "change the world" techies are willing to get into bed with governments like this as long as they are making money. It's sickening.

Where you are wrong is the suggestion that this isn't entirely different. People bitch about US policy all the time. 50% of the political discussion on HN is bitching about US policy. I can't blame anyone for that (especially because it affects so many), but HN is a site based in the US, started by a VC firm based in the US, etc. It's super annoying when people from other countries who have never lived for any length of time in the US and act like their country is heaven on earth complain, but you get to complain, nobody stops you, you'll often get upvoted.

That doesn't happen in China. If the government (the party), which has been in power for 80 years, decides you don't get a voice, you don't get a voice. Given enough time, because we allow criticism and discussion, US policy will probably change as it has many times over the centuries. What's gonna happen in China? Nobody knows.

If it scares people that we now have strongmen dictators in Russia, the Philippines, Turkey, etc, and we've now got that in China, a nation with a small cadre of party leaders ruling over 1 billion people that have no real outlet to disagree, and which only gains more and more power, you really can't blame them. And if you're being honest with yourself, you can't really act like those systems are really the same thing.

The Chinese government is effectively the one described in 1984. If we're not that far gone in the West, it's because we allow things like free media and the publication of stuff like 1984. You can't really say they are the same thing.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#137

Post by dang »

yusuke10 wrote: post #60
api wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's GDP is doing great, and GDP growth is the only thing that matters to quite a few people.

FAKE gdp. most likely 0% gdp growth, if not negative. China’s 2015 GDP Was Exaggerated By Fake Data, Analysis Shows ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/china-s-2... ) Another Chinese city admits 'fake' economic data ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-data/anothe... ) This Is How China's Regions Fare in the Fake GDP Data Stakes ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/this-…

This account has only used HN to engage in political battle—in this case national battle about China. Regardless of what you're battling for, that's an abuse of the site as explained at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, so we've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break the site rules with.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#138

Post by liberte82 »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #64
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15

I could go downtown tonight, stand on the street corner, and shout "F--- the president!" at the top of my lungs. What would happen? I might get dirty looks. I might get some people shaking my hand. And I might - might - get an angry tweet from the president. I probably would not get either arrested or beaten up. (And this isn't a political statement. I could have done the same under the previous president, with the s…

From the perspective of a non-American it seems this is becoming less true over time; I see things like "Free Speech zones", and violence from Antifa and the alt-right. Not State actors in some cases, but proxies for them.

Why hire state actors, when you've got more than enough true believers to go around?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#139

Post by ilamont »

ender89 wrote: post #106
ilamont wrote: post #18

I have one Chinese friend who employs a double entendre, calling him "Xitler" In all seriousness, this is a black period for Chinese people and China's neighbors. The fledgling democracy in Hong Kong, and democratic nations around China's periphery including Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, and India should be very wary dealing with a strongman who will stop at nothing to further his power and nationalism-focused legacy.

Japan has nothing to worry about. The Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan, signed after WWII, basically means that Japan AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA are responsible to ensure the national security of Japan (It's actually mutual with the understanding that the Japanese constitution forbids deploying armed forces abroad). In other words, if china is actually aggressive tow…

Mutual defense treaties have a poor track record in the face of heavily armed, aggressive regimes playing up real or imagined injustices while undermining political and military obstacles. If the alliance is weak, disaster can result.

Examples abound - Poland and France both had mutual defense treaties with various allies that failed when Germany invaded. In Japan's backyard, the Philippines lost territory in the South China Sea to China after it decided to cut ties with the U.S. military. As soon as the U.S. pulled away, the Chinese PLA moved right in. An international tribunal in The Hague ruled China's actions were completely illegal, but China has since strengthened its hold by building landing strips and military fortifications on the reefs and small islets.

The Japan/U.S. alliance is strong, but relationships and power profiles can change. Xi's not going anywhere, and he can play the long game when it comes to the Diaoyutai and other territorial claims.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#140

Post by briga »

phyller wrote: post #126
briga wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the greatest emperor isn't going to fix all of the ills of society. What matters is what they can achieve during their time in power. If tomorrow some all-knowing wise leader were be elected to power in China, do you really think there would be no problems? That corruption and violence would vanish? You have to look at the historical context of their reigns.

I think the point that is being made is that regardless of whether or not that particular ruler is effective, in the long term they have weakened their society because they have broken the system that ensures that capable people/groups peacefully succeed each other to power.

I don't think you can argue that any of those rulers weakened their societies--unless you completely disregard historical fact.

I was just questioning the dogma that having leaders in power for multiple terms is automatically bad. I'm open to the possibility that Xi is a bad leader--I'm no expert on China--but it seems that China today is a better place than when he came in to power. I guess people don't agree with me here.

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