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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#261

Post by spapas82 »

jacquesm wrote: post #165
learnstats2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that cities and towns which have ban vehicles for general use can deal with exceptions, and have dealt with this problem. Some highly economically productive cities in Europe have similar bans on private vehicles in the centre, and function perfectly well.

Typically these bans are limited to the inner city or the historic center, there is - outside of some small towns in Switzerland - no major European city that I am aware of that has banned vehicles outright. The towns that have banned vehicles completely that I am aware of are all small and have simply set up a major parking lot right next to the access road into town. For the ones that I am aware of this was a pract…

Also, the greek island of Spetses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetses

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#262

Post by davrosthedalek »

Xylakant wrote: post #202
jacquesm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. If we start to take words and stretch their meaning beyond the agreed upon definition then any argument becomes meaningless. 'subsidy' is a very clearly defined term. "a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low." If the state is issuing a tax on something it is by definition not subsidize…

I hate quoting wikipedia, but the definition they use is far wider: "A subsidy is a form of financial aid or support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.[1] Although commonly extended from government, the term subsidy can relate to any type of support – for example from NGOs or as implicit subsidies. Subsidies come in…

But it's not a tax break. You pay more taxes on diesel than on other things, except gas. Are all other things subsidized because they don't have the gas tax?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#263

Post by saagarjha »

foepys wrote: post #23
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Stop touting "Germany buys electricity from France because they don't have nuclear power". France always exported electricity because they cannot power their nuclear power plants up and down as easy as others can their coal plants. In hot summers and cold winters France relies on Germany electricity to stabilize their net because nuclear power then becomes a problem.

Forgive if I'm wrong, but isn't nuclear power always used for base load? Why would France have excess nuclear energy at all?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#264

Post by Angostura »

A correction to the headline; its only older diesels, not all diesels.

From way down the article:

> Cars that meet Euro-4 emissions standards could be banned from Stuttgart from next January, while Euro-5 vehicles should not be banned until Sept. 1, 2019, four years after the introduction of the latest Euro-6 standard.

If you have a diesel with Ad Blu designed to catalytically remove NOx, you should be OK for now.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#265

Post by woodpanel »

guardian5x wrote: post #20
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Sorry, but you're comparing apples with oranges.

Germany is "exporting" energy because its ecological agenda is forcing energy companies to buy all green energy that is produced all the time, leading to severe instabilities for the grid. So to keep the German grid from collapsing Germany is dumping its energy into foreign grids, for negative prices even. It has caused the neighbouring countries so much trouble, that most of them installed phase-shifters to block out the German dumping.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#266

Post by woodpanel »

odiroot wrote: post #185
thesimon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high And it mandates that for around 15 years now. One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at least 8 years now. It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do something effective.

> (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits Funnily enough multiple car factories are based here.

True, Stuttgart as the biggest cluster of German car manufacturing has been the epicentre of the German pollution-debate (that was based around particulate matter, not NOX).

The Diesel has become somehow the victim of this (sadly, since as mentioned by other commenters here, Diesel cars have their advantages).

The reason Stuttgart is Germany's pollution capital has almost nothing to do with the Diesel but:

- its topography, being a city almost completely surrounded by hills, thus unusually hot and windless for a German city

- the upper class areas on the hillside/slopes are the main polluters with houses dating from ca 1900 and/or re-equipped with pellet heating systems that were subsidized because of energy footprint while being even worse pollution-wise than even older heaters

Both of these points are validated by the fact, that it's not the weekends when the pollution calms but its the winters when there is almost a daily pollution warning - its when the rich people heat.

Even the plaintiffs in the other recent (particulate matter focused) important German pollution case complained that a Diesel ban does nothing for the pollution situation: The main source for car based emissions aren't the engines - but the wheels.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#267

Post by 1337biz »

matt4077 wrote: post #163
1337biz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about the idea that this is a hidden stimulation for the German car industry, ie. If you can find a reason to ban all cars that are painted blue, you create massive demands for other colors.

This lawsuit was between cities trying to ban diesel cars and their respective states. The two states are openly supportive of their local car industry, while the cities were motivated to improve local air quality by looming EU fines. The court, being the highest administrative court in the country, is also unlikely to be in the car industry's pocket: any backroom communication with industry lobbyists would be a majo…

What I am trying to say is - I don't belive that this is an obvious form of corruption, pribes and so on. This seems at that scale very unlikely in any Western democracy.

But I find suprising that over the last years it became obvious that electric cars are not the choice for the largest majority of any new car buyers. But all of the sudden the car manufacturer industry is having a scandal (aparently mostly in Germany) that becomes such a manficent scandal that is reaching a dimension never seen before. As a result a large number of cars is most likely going to be taken out of the market that would have never been replaced that early on.

Besides from kicking out a few employees, updating a few models and paying fines, the latter both probably covered by their insurances, the companies have no real consequences experienced. Sales and revenues seem to be stable and a few % changes in brand reputation are not going to hurt them either. Ultimately there will soon be a lot more cares purchased at a time where Tesla is still not mainstream ready.

Sometimes you have to kill the one to save the many.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#268

Post by woodpanel »

TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

As a German urbanite who has been moving in and out of cities to even rural areas I have to say: Look beyond your own nose. Not everybody lives in Berlin Kreuzberg.

It's basically statements like these "Next: Petrol cars please" that deprive the clean-air activists of any credibility.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#269

Post by Xylakant »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #262
Xylakant wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate quoting wikipedia, but the definition they use is far wider: "A subsidy is a form of financial aid or support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.[1] Although commonly extended from government, the term subsidy can relate to any type of support – for example from NGOs or as implicit subsidies. Subsidies come in…

But it's not a tax break. You pay more taxes on diesel than on other things, except gas. Are all other things subsidized because they don't have the gas tax?

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

It’s the same thing as gas: fuel, to power a car. It just happens to be a slightly different mix of hydrocarbons. It’s sold from the same machine, at the same place for the same purpose. And it’s taxed the same way in pretty much all European countries, Germany is the odd outlier. Different kinds of petrol are taxed the same way, too.

The same mix of hydrocarbons that is diesel fuel is sold for heatings as well (Heizöl) It’s taxed different - since it’s a different use. And since that one is taxed much lower, they add a red color and using it as fuel is tax evasion and lands you in jail.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#270

Post by jacquesm »

spapas82 wrote: post #261
jacquesm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically these bans are limited to the inner city or the historic center, there is - outside of some small towns in Switzerland - no major European city that I am aware of that has banned vehicles outright. The towns that have banned vehicles completely that I am aware of are all small and have simply set up a major parking lot right next to the access road into town. For the ones that I am aware of this was a pract…

Also, the greek island of Spetses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetses

Islands are pretty good candidates to start this. We have a couple here in NL but the majority have vehicle access through ferries.
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