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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#201

Post by jacquesm »

hycaria wrote: post #196
jacquesm wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to see you downvoted. I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable. The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in…

Would you really need a car if you lived in Amsterdam though ?

That depends strongly on your family situation and your job. For a single individual working in the city or a family with all their extended family nearby you could easily get away without a car.

But not everybody is that lucky and plenty of professions will require you to be in places where public transportation is not an option. An interesting reversal of intentions is happening between the cities of Almere and Amsterdam. Almere and Amsterdam are connected very well through public transport and many people will take the train into Amsterdam each day from Almere. The Amsterdam public transport system is reasonably good and services most of the areas with corporate activity. The fact that Almere has a large and skilled professional population caused some clever business people to move their operation to Almere. Initially those companies were staffed with people living almost exclusively in Almere itself. But now people from Amsterdam have started to commute to Almere in the morning causing a substantial amount of traffic the other way because the Almere industrial areas are not as well serviced with public transport as they probably should have been.

The best combination for such transportation that I've found is to take a small folding bike along on the train, this gets you within a few km of where you need to go and then it is an easy bike ride. But this option is not open to everybody, and it almost closed for me too due to a self inflicted bike accident.

Amsterdam is just about ideal for cycling, Copenhagen is the other EU city that really gets this right and Helsinki gets a lot of credit from me for being almost there. But the majority of EU cities have a very long way to go to make the bicycle the best form of transportation and even in Amsterdam bicycling is anything but safe (mostly due to scooters and taxis).

Amsterdam could probably get away now with closing off the center for traffic completely, say from Munt to central station and east to the Cruqius mill and west to Haarlemmer poort. They would have to build some more underground parking though because that would lose the main new parking garage at Oosterdok.

Maybe in a couple of years, time will tell.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#202

Post by Xylakant »

jacquesm wrote: post #171
Xylakant wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are both taxed, but at a different rate. The government picks up the cost in terms of lost income. Yes, it's a subsidy (a deliberate tax break). The historic reason is that diesel was used for trucks. Later, diesel cars were considered to be environmentally better since they produce less CO2 per kilometer. They're just worse in other regards.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you. If we start to take words and stretch their meaning beyond the agreed upon definition then any argument becomes meaningless. 'subsidy' is a very clearly defined term. "a sum of money granted by the state or a public body to help an industry or business keep the price of a commodity or service low." If the state is issuing a tax on something it is by definition not subsidize…

I hate quoting wikipedia, but the definition they use is far wider:

"A subsidy is a form of financial aid or support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.[1] Although commonly extended from government, the term subsidy can relate to any type of support – for example from NGOs or as implicit subsidies. Subsidies come in various forms including: direct (cash grants, interest-free loans) and indirect (tax breaks, insurance, low-interest loans, accelerated depreciation, rent rebates)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy

That would at least indicate that the definition is by far not as clear as you would like to have it.

Diesel is taxed lower with the aim of promoting two economic goals: lowering total CO2 output and supporting the transportation sector. It falls really right under that definition.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#203

Post by jacquesm »

CalRobert wrote: post #199
jacquesm wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it? True, but the ones that have historically been there are usually grandfathered in when the area as a whole is declared a reservation. There will be strict limits on what you can do with such a place but that's a small price to pay. There was one for sale here in NL, at least 2500 meters away from any trafficked road but - ironically - the…

:-( that's a shame. Can I ask how you found it? I've been researching this sort of thing casually and am not sure where to begin. I'm not aware of an EU-wide real estate search, aside from sites missing 95% of inventory like ee24.

I found it on a bike trip. I've also lived in one of those places (Oudezijl, North-Eastern Groningen). The North-East of the country here is quite bike friendly and definitely as close to car free as it gets. Houses there are cheap because of the fear of earthquakes due to gas extraction, which means it is easy to buy in but very hard to sell.

One very good way to find such houses is to look at night time satellite images and to look for places with very little light. Any houses in those regions will be in very lightly trafficked areas.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#204

Post by blubb-fish »

awesome news - first of all public transportation in any town with more than a hundred thousand inhabitants is good enough that nobody needs to use a car except for very specific cases. of course if everybody would switch to ÖPNV then the capacity would be maxed out - so the conclusion is increasing availability of public transportation.

also the way parts of government (mostly those rooted in Bavaria) attempted together with VW, Audio etc. to weasel their way out of taking responsibility. the testing applied was stupid and lacking realism - but nonetheless they programmed software that detects a test and adjusts the motor's inner workings. that's beyond benefiting of stupidity - that is criminal.

It feels great, great, great - I hope this will strengthen research and development for and of electric vehicles.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#205

Post by Tyrek »

inetknght wrote: post #134
CalRobert wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean free at point of delivery. People using them don't necessarily pay for them (if I drive from SF to San Diego, I pay nothing to LA for the use of their roads, which doesn't really seem fair, though admittedly most of that drive would be on Interstate) I'd have no problem with tolled roads. Funny enough I would _love_ tolled bike paths - I'd pay several grand a year for them willingly - if I could even get them.…

I disagree with the concept of toll roads, at least insomuch as they're effectively double-taxing us: we pay taxes for roads already. Now you want me to pay again to use the road? But really, if roads were not free in the first place, toll roads would basically stop being a thing and the roads themselves would become the toll.

It's a double tax because you're not paying enough for the road in the first place. I understand that there's this huge resistance to paying tolls for roads, but there's a valid reason for them for a variety of policy reasons (decongestion of city centers, insufficient funding to build out the road without private participation/tolls) that make it a valid tool for governments to lean on. In fact, the tolls allow for a more focused alignment of price vs usage (insofar as non-users of the toll road aren't tolled), which is a reasonable approach to take as a mixed pricing (taxes + tolls) model.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#206

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

Zak wrote: post #41
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? What's the difference?

In a big picture sense, they're the same. I think it says something different about intent though. A subsidy says something is essential or desirable. A relatively lower, but still very high excise tax says one thing is disliked less than the other.

But ... a tax break is a subsidy!

And really, there usually is little significance to how the subsidy is paid, it's usually just an artefact of how it developed historically and how things were easiest to implement, potentially depending on psychological factors.

I mean, what would the alternative look like? You have to pay the same tax for both, but then can claim back a fixed percentage of the taxes on diesel? On the same form? Or should they have created a separate agency that processes the refunds? There simply is no other sensible way to implement this subsidy, and that's why it is the way it is.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#207

Post by CaptainDecisive »

gwbas1c wrote: post #89
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

One thing I've quickly realized from driving an electric car: gas (petrol) cars smell really, really bad. We're just so used to it we don't notice.

One funny thing I've realized is that I like the smell of coal fires. It must have been horrible back when cities were choking on it, but coal is so completely phased out now that when I occasionally do smell coal smoke from a domestic fire or say a steam engine I really like it.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#208

Post by mem0r1 »

TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

So what‘s with the constitutional guarantee of ownership ? I highly doubt that court decision is constitutional, I think and hope it is going to be overthrown by the German Federal Consitutional Court. I‘m so tired of the freedom hostile Green-Leftist agenda in Germany !

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#209

Post by oldcynic »

jacquesm wrote: post #190
rmetzler wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city. This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law. I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I b…

Sorry to see you downvoted. I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable. The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in…

> ...and the cities were ill prepared to deal with that.

For all the faults around Europe with traffic, I think they did far better adapting to cars than the UK. Mainly by preserving some of the alternatives better.

The Netherlands has infinitely more sensibly integrated public transport, and provision for cycles than we will probably ever have. At least that's my perspective as an occasional visitor.

Postwar rebuilding here gave us internal combustion as the answer to all, leading to much, now regretted, removal of rail lines and trams. Not forgetting the many people-hostile choices like cutting communities in two (e.g. Mancunian Way) and giving residents a motorway right above the house (Birmingham, M6). Trying to undo those choices always comes with a bill in the £bns for the shortest length or rail or tram.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#210

Post by dmix »

mem0r1 wrote: post #208
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

So what‘s with the constitutional guarantee of ownership ? I highly doubt that court decision is constitutional, I think and hope it is going to be overthrown by the German Federal Consitutional Court. I‘m so tired of the freedom hostile Green-Leftist agenda in Germany !

> The ruling was praised by environmental groups but angered many politicians and business lobbies who said millions of drivers might end up unable to use or sell vehicles they bought in good faith.

That latter part is a very serious concern. This isn't hurting big evil corporations who are killing the planet. It's hurting regular lower/middle class Germans who bought cars that they could afford just as everyone else was... electric isn't a financial option for the vast majority of people and diesel has been sold/advertised as comparable to petrol for quite some time...

Like most bad policies it's based in good intentions with some highly questionable/harmful real-world implications.

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