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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#191

Post by CalRobert »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #164
IshKebab wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sofa can't be transported by bike. Especially not up hills, don't be an idiot. A better solution would be to restrict traffic to commercial vehicles and only at certain times.

Haha I've done it, the Dutch are a bit crazy but yeah... we transport furniture on what essentially is a (frontloaded) trailer-bike. That having been said, I think it's a silly solution to expect bicycles to take over logistics. I think we can all agree however that if the only vehicles on the roads were for logistics and public benefit (e.g. ambulance) that'd be a massive improvement already.

They already have in some of the most appropriate circumstances. Article is 2017 but these are still up and running.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/container...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#192

Post by jacquesm »

CalRobert wrote: post #176
jacquesm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still plenty of cars in Ghent, except for the very heart of the city. The circulation plan they implemented there works to some extent but it has actually made the situation in the outskirts of the city worse because people that do have to drive now drive longer distances to get to the same place. There is still inner city parking too (the underground garages) so Ghent is not really free of cars yet. If you…

I was hoping to bear near people as well. I suppose it was a bit fanciful; I visited Ghent in spring and it was jaw-droppingly beautiful (flowers spilling over railings along a pretty river. The blue skies didn't hurt either). That would cost a bit, but from the looks of it not _too_ much all things considered. Some of the old walled cities are car-free enough that I'd let a six year old ride a bike in them, thus Rot…

> Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it?

True, but the ones that have historically been there are usually grandfathered in when the area as a whole is declared a reservation. There will be strict limits on what you can do with such a place but that's a small price to pay.

There was one for sale here in NL, at least 2500 meters away from any trafficked road but - ironically - the people that live there have road access to their property making the whole thing much worse for the other users of that area such as me when I'm cycling there (the road is only about 2 meters wide).

I'd be very happy if you had bought it, that would save at least two vehicles that still use that road!

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#193

Post by saiya-jin »

Svip wrote: post #98
olex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

Diesel isn't that cost efficient actually, even if you drive a lot. Diesel are more expensive to maintain due to regulations, plus diesel cars tend to be more expensive their petrol counterparts. Moreover, there is depreciation, which tend to be worse for diesel cars, because they are valued less on the second hand market (fairly or unfairly). On average, you should expect to drive at least 150.000+ km before you've…

What the hell are you talking about? Yes diesels are more expensive, the engine has to withstand much higher pressures internally, so it's made from solid iron rather than aluminium petrol engines (this is common situation, there might be exceptions). You can see it in weight difference - it can be up to 100kg more between similarly-specced engines.

Result - you can run a diesel engine for 500,000 km easily, even more but other parts of the car won't usually keep up. Not much support needed apart from changing oil. I didn't have a single issue with my BMW 3l one, drove it for 100k km so far (and bought it with 100k km already), it drives like on my first day. There is a reason why all the buses and trucks have/had them - cheap to run, reliable.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#194

Post by rmetzler »

jacquesm wrote: post #190
rmetzler wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city. This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law. I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I b…

Sorry to see you downvoted. I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable. The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in…

I understand you and I have to say that there are more than only a few things politicians like to say that are absolutely not possible if you can calculate and know how to look up things in Google. The whole German "Energiewende" and electrical car thing is impossible to do. It's just a wishful dream.

What is absolutely possible is to ban cars from certain areas for certain times. And the thing is, VW and the other car manufacturers are the guys at fault. I'm pretty sure they will have to pay a big price for their downplay of the scandal.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#195

Post by jacquesm »

rmetzler wrote: post #194
jacquesm wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to see you downvoted. I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable. The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in…

I understand you and I have to say that there are more than only a few things politicians like to say that are absolutely not possible if you can calculate and know how to look up things in Google. The whole German "Energiewende" and electrical car thing is impossible to do. It's just a wishful dream. What is absolutely possible is to ban cars from certain areas for certain times. And the thing is, VW and the other c…

VW just closed one of their highest quarters ever, the Diesel scandal seems to have not affected the brand much. This is not what I expected but consumers apparently care less than what you might think.

Politicians will say whatever they want to get people to vote for them regardless of whether or not their plans are actually realistic.

The electrical car is doable as a complete replacement, but not overnight. It will need a lot of work and time before this can be a reality, but step-by-step we might get there.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#196

Post by hycaria »

jacquesm wrote: post #190
rmetzler wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city. This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law. I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I b…

Sorry to see you downvoted. I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable. The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in…

Would you really need a car if you lived in Amsterdam though ?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#197

Post by davidiach »

tjansen wrote: post #136
1337biz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about the idea that this is a hidden stimulation for the German car industry, ie. If you can find a reason to ban all cars that are painted blue, you create massive demands for other colors.

In my case it does. I am driving a Euro5 Diesel car and live in one of those cities where they may be banned. So, yes, I need to buy a new one. Which is quite difficult, or at least expensive, because it's quite possible that cars with the newer Euro6 Diesel emission standard may also be banned in the mid-term, and the latest standard Euro6d is brand new.

I live in one of those cities as well and sold my diesel car last year when the talks regarding the ban started. I now drive a petrol car. It's not that big of a difference.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#198

Post by albertgoeswoof »

epanchin wrote: post #121
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #44

I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP. My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions) But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies…

Government policy is to not retroactively change tax bands but to control vehicle use through other means, eg emissions zones. I’m sure you can work out the morally correct action based on the types of areas you drive through. You don’t really need the government to make this decision for you.

Right, but what happens when I take the morally correct action and suddenly have a worthless car?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#199

Post by CalRobert »

jacquesm wrote: post #192
CalRobert wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hoping to bear near people as well. I suppose it was a bit fanciful; I visited Ghent in spring and it was jaw-droppingly beautiful (flowers spilling over railings along a pretty river. The blue skies didn't hurt either). That would cost a bit, but from the looks of it not _too_ much all things considered. Some of the old walled cities are car-free enough that I'd let a six year old ride a bike in them, thus Rot…

> Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it? True, but the ones that have historically been there are usually grandfathered in when the area as a whole is declared a reservation. There will be strict limits on what you can do with such a place but that's a small price to pay. There was one for sale here in NL, at least 2500 meters away from any trafficked road but - ironically - the…

:-( that's a shame. Can I ask how you found it? I've been researching this sort of thing casually and am not sure where to begin. I'm not aware of an EU-wide real estate search, aside from sites missing 95% of inventory like ee24.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#200

Post by kartan »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

> And the German economy would crash That will also happen if you remove any major industry. And that's why you plan that in the long term. You start banning some use cases, and you keep increasing it. That's what is being done with tobacco, for example. But it is not a reason to not do it.

So I think that you both are right, and it is just a misunderstanding on the time-frame that this changes will happen.

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