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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#131

Post by bergie »

brownbat wrote: post #80
cwal37 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate i…

Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust. Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually. There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles into the air, suspending them in the ai…

Related to PM output, here is a crowdsourced effort to collect air quality data around the world:

https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0

Building and deploying your own sensor is pretty easy: https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#132

Post by MasterPI »

tyu100 wrote: post #58
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

I was in Spain last year for several weeks and it was so depressing how every town viewed at altitude was covered in a pervasive pea soup of diesel smog. The link between German industrial policy/protectionism and environmental disasters like diesel has been known for a while now but European cities in particular will be paying the price for a long time.

> pervasive pea soup of diesel smog

How do you know it's smog caused by diesel? LA has suffered (don't know how is it today) for years from smog and the majority of the vehicles there are petrol. I mean you can't blame it all on diesel.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#133

Post by plopz »

brownbat wrote: post #80
cwal37 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate i…

Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust. Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually. There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles into the air, suspending them in the ai…

So electric vehicles with their heavy batteries may still cause local pollution?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#134

Post by inetknght »

CalRobert wrote: post #115
majewsky wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grandparent probably doesn't mean "free", but "sunk cost".

I mean free at point of delivery. People using them don't necessarily pay for them (if I drive from SF to San Diego, I pay nothing to LA for the use of their roads, which doesn't really seem fair, though admittedly most of that drive would be on Interstate) I'd have no problem with tolled roads. Funny enough I would _love_ tolled bike paths - I'd pay several grand a year for them willingly - if I could even get them.…

I disagree with the concept of toll roads, at least insomuch as they're effectively double-taxing us: we pay taxes for roads already. Now you want me to pay again to use the road?

But really, if roads were not free in the first place, toll roads would basically stop being a thing and the roads themselves would become the toll.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#135

Post by IshKebab »

TheLostOne wrote: post #105
govg wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is far from solving these problems to the extent of being deployed world wide.

No it's five years. As the internet changed everything in 10 years, mobile internet changed everything in 5 years. Change will come rapidly not slow. Also if you're a lawyer "An AI just beat top lawyers at their own game" https://mashable.com/2018/02/26/ai-beats-humans-at-contracts...

That lawyer thing is like saying "a calculator just beat top mathematicians at their own arithmetic" and expecting it to generate replace maths professors within 5 years.

AI is great but it's hilarious to think much will have changed in 5 years. Have a look at the results from the Stanford Question Answering Database if you want to see how far there is still to go.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#136

Post by tjansen »

1337biz wrote: post #125
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

What do you think about the idea that this is a hidden stimulation for the German car industry, ie. If you can find a reason to ban all cars that are painted blue, you create massive demands for other colors.

In my case it does. I am driving a Euro5 Diesel car and live in one of those cities where they may be banned. So, yes, I need to buy a new one. Which is quite difficult, or at least expensive, because it's quite possible that cars with the newer Euro6 Diesel emission standard may also be banned in the mid-term, and the latest standard Euro6d is brand new.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#137

Post by kgabis »

bergie wrote: post #93
madez wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU comission threatened to fine Germany for the air pollution caused by these cars. I expect they'd treat other EU countries the same.

Already happening: > The EU’s top court ruled that Poland has persistently breached European standards on air pollution, which causes nearly 50,000 deaths in the country each year. https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761...

It's not caused by old cars (for the most part), but rather by people burning cheap coal in inefficient furnaces to keep warm during winter (see "energy poverty").

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#138

Post by kbart »

tjansen wrote: post #119
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

Please no bicylces, they are terrible for pedestrians. I'd rather deal with cars than bikes.

In most cities with good bike infrastructure I've seen you cannot ride a bike among pedestrians, they are limited to roads and bike lanes[0]. Whenever I see bicycle on a sidewalk is most often because road is jammed with cars or it's too dangerous for bikes, if we get rid of (most) cars, this will not be a problem as there will be plenty of space for everyone.

0. http://www.cambridgema.gov/~/media/Images/CDD/Transportation...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#139

Post by IshKebab »

tjansen wrote: post #129
biswaroop wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, cars kill astronomically more pedestrians than do bikes.

There are two differences: a) It's something that I can control, as long as I stay on the sidewalk and the cars stay on the street. But I have no control over bicycles on the sidewalks (even if there is a bike lane and it's illegal, many cyclists just take the shortest path, because they can). b) it's a problem than can mostly be solved by technology. I would like to see automatic pedestrian braking being required fo…

Do you think the pedestrians who get killed by cars were somehow "forgetting to control it"? That makes zero sense.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#140

Post by the-dude »

Heliosmaster wrote: post #79
72deluxe wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like sofas, armchairs, refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, flat-screen TVs and oak beds? Great idea, but how would you feasibly transport them? The deliveroo boxes are going to have to increase in size...

In the Netherlands bakfiets ( http://img.tweede-hands.net/pics/00/13/08/63/97/3c.jpg?d0cc3... ) can be easily used to transport this kind of things. Also, realistically, do you need to transport these things on a daily basis? Can you not rent a (electric) truck whenever you need this kind of things?

No bakfiets, but fietsaanhanger :

https://hollandbikeshop.com/fietskarren/bagage-fietskarren/

English : bicycle trailer.

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