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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

31–40 of 345 posts

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#31
post #11

The backstory here: EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high. German law prohibits various kinds of discrimination. For example, a simple ban on half the cars on Monday and the other on Tuesday would bother large plumber companies much less than independent plumbers who need a carful of tools and have only one car. What actions are the cities permitted to take, and/or required.

>EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high And it mandates that for around 15 years now. One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at least 8 years now. It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do something effective.

I think that's by design. The law is a compromise, written such that the unpleasantness would bite, but would not bite until the people who negotiated the compromise were safely out of office.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> slow to accelerate

Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol.

But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). This is offset by higher road tax and insurance somewhat, but for commuters and others who drive a lot (>~20000km per year) diesels are a much more cost effective option in Germany than anything else.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#33

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

This is about NOx, which is not healthy for humans. In regards to CO2, which is bad for the climate, Diesels are indeed better than petrol cars.

NOx is also the biggest product of animal agriculture. It also has an effect on climate change. Global warming potential is around 300 times larger than CO2. [1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

Better efficiency in terms of CO2 emissions.

Edit -- sources: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es034928d, https://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-reall...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#35

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

Ehh.... I worked for a long time as a mechanic on diesel engines. The engines are designed to conform with emissions requirements as they are written, not necessarily to be more efficient or cleaner. And of course some auto manufacturers have taken rather "creative" approaches to meeting these requirements.

Even with everything above board, the technology is not really there to make diesel a great solution for autos. First, the emissions equipment in modern diesel engines adds weight and reduces engine airflow, making them less efficient than they could be. In fact, today's small diesel engines are only 10-20% more efficient than gas equivalents, when in the past they have been over 50% more efficient.

There are three primary types of pollution that come from an internal combustion engine--carbon, which causes global warming; nitrous oxides, which cause smog, and particulate matter, which contributes to air pollution and also causes all sorts of nasty health problems. Diesel engines are better than gasoline on carbon emissions by virtue of being more efficient, although as I mentioned this gap is closing. Special catalytic exhaust equipment has been added to newer diesel engines to reduce nitrous oxides, but it's expensive and the environmental benefits are marginal. Particulate matter is addressed by burning the soot that comes out of the exhaust, again using expensive equipment that reduces efficiency, and AFAIK the science is still out on whether and by how much this actually reduces environmental/health impacts.

Some municipalities in the US have perhaps misguidedly banned diesel engines from their roads. The situation is a little different in Europe, where diesel engines are found in a much larger share of passenger vehicles. If Europeans drove as much as Americans did, their cities would all look like LA circa 1975. I'm not sure about car ownership trends in Europe, but I think it would make sense for any city that expects increases in car ownership to start regulating diesel more heavily.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#36
post #25

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

The first link goes to a paywall for me. Is the fuel subsidized, or just taxed less? The tax on gasoline in Germany is roughly 100% at current prices.

It's taxed less. The tax on gasoline is about 0.78 EUR, the tax on diesel is 0.56 EUR (per liter).

Source: http://www.zeit.de/2017/29/kraftstoffe-diesel-subvention-sti...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency?

I wouldn't assume that there's a direct relationship between diesel engines still being around and diesel engines still having an advantage over others. Not having to replace your fleet of trucks, buses, trains or whatever is a big enough advantage for most companies.

Also, importing energy from other countries isn't a sign of poor energy production. If buying energy from you costs me less than turning my power plant on for a day I'm gonna shut it down and call it a day. Not to mention the fact that energy prices are sometimes negative (i.e., they pay you for taking it).

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

In support of your statement, in comparison to gasoline, diesel costs less to produce, it has more energy per unit of volume, it is much safer to store and use, diesel engines produce more torque at lower RPMs, and yes, vehicle maintenance is less costly over the length of ownership for the vehicle.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> they smell

And petrol cars don't smell?

> slow to accelerate

I think you've never driven a big modern engine diesel car. I have driven this BMW 535d[0] and believe me this monster is not "slow" in any way (0-100km/h in 5.5 seconds). It accelerates faster than the petrol equivalent because of the more torque it produces.

[0]http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/2011/1337945/bmw_535d....

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#40

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. ( https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa... ) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.

Regardless of exporting a lot of electricity, they are also now completely dependent on French nuclear power for energy security. German renewable sources are intermittent. In short, they produce energy when there is enough wind and when the sun shines, and both of those are conditions that correlate heavily over all of Germany. German electricity demand largely does not match them -- unlike in hotter climates, air conditioning is not used much, so demand is negatively correlated with sunshine, and the intermittent capacity greatly exceeds the variable capacity.

So today, when it's windy or the sun shines in a clear sky, they have great overproduction, while when neither is true, they depend on foreign sources.

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