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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#321

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

nicoburns wrote: post #138
linkmotif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

If you live somewhere with a social safety net (I'm from the UK) then there isn't the same social imperative to save: saving becomes a luxury for those who are not the poorest in society (which in reality it is anyway) This works because we end up sharing the disproportionate costs which sometimes fall on those who are unfortunate (they lose their job, they get sick, etc). It's much more efficient than everyone havin…

And it sure is difficult for folks to save when they are working their butts off to pay crazy rent/mortgage and sky high medical/dental so they can stay healthy to work...plus college and grad school loans that got them the low paying job in the first place (although they went to school to have an actual profession which would have covered these expenses but doesn't come close anymore) all in a city where there are some jobs but no affordable housing. If you can't afford your monthly bills, you can't save and you go deeper into the hole. This is the case for many with graduate degrees in the US.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#322

Post by Broken_Hippo »

chaostheory wrote: post #261
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution The statement that they should probably need to be cared for in a mental institution isn't true. That some or several may need to be cared for is true, yes, but the probability of that need is less well know. Schizophrenia and other schizophrenia-related disorders can often 'mellow out' on their ow…

To be clear, we're discussing homeless people with mental issues, and not people who aren't homeless. The homeless have less access to resources than a non-homeless person with family and friends. > It is important to give someone a stable and loving and validating environment for them to be able to recover. There are several kinds of people who, while they talk to themselves, really just have their symptoms exacerba…

Yes, there are. The only real difference between a mentally ill homeless person and a normal mentally ill person is the home. Why wouldn't a stable home be the answer?

A short-term stay in a mental hospital might be necessary while getting the patient adjusted to their medication. But once someone is stable, there is no need for such things. Even though the institutions have changed, they are still pretty horrible places to stay in, with all sorts of lifestyle restrictions that aren't generally needed.

A small apartment is appropriate for most folks once they are stable, along with access to someone to call. Some communities have social workers that visit once or twice a week and help with grocery shopping, bill paying, and general "how are you" sorts of things. Group homes are another option if someone chooses it: Private space with shared kitchen and whatnot, staffed with someone to help with cooking and cleaning. My ex, diagnosed with schizophrenia, would have been a candidate for such a thing. I was his primary caregiver, fair or not, and his doctor didn't want him living alone for his own protection.

Give support for family members as well - this is something seriously lacking in the US system. He had help, I didn't.

A small amount of folks might need some help for substance abuse, but many short-term mental health facilities are equipped to do this. A fair amount of folks would be helped by police that are capable of helping mentally ill folks with training and a marker on their ID so the cops know what to change in their approach.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#323

Post by hycaria »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #270
linkmotif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

> if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? The size of income is not the only difference between people. People can have different families, get different informal education at home, etc. If you are poor but smart, and so is your family, and you love and help each other... there is a chance you will sooner or later get out of poverty somehow; as long a…

If Joe rather has relatives no matter how crazy and draining on his own financial and mental wealth, than to just cut bridges, protect himself and let people assume their shitty decisions, then be it, he made his choice.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#324

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #208
linkmotif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

Why do you assume someone can HAVE savings? I live in a Texas city. Rent here for a 2 bedroom apartment is over $1K a month. If you're a single mother of 2, you can expect $500 a month for EBT if you make $9 an hour. So after you get through paying your taxes, social security, medicare, etc... you're stuck with pocket change (that still has to go to electricity, gas for the car / maintenance) and use EBT to pay for y…

Thank you for saying this. Our support structures are an embarassment. The hoops they make the homeless jump through for basic Medicaid are a crime as well. So of course no savings! But we both know there are people who would have that mom rent a studio apartment instead. Obviously none of those people are moms themselves.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#325

Post by hycaria »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #299
Simon_says wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, but I'm not sure, that at her income level, the Earned Income Tax Credit will let her get a net refund from the federal government? And Texas doesn't tax income. Savings have to come from the biggest choices in your life. You've already assumed a bunch of poor choices in your model of this hypothetical person. You didn't mention your city, but I found $400-500 2 bedroom apartments on a quick Craigslist searc…

Maybe don't choose to have kids when you're making $9/hour or have a chaotic domestic life? Most children aren't actually planned. They occur because mother nature has spent millions of years perfecting the art of tricking people into liking sex. Or, as I sometimes say, our genes are like virii: They don't care how miserable they make you in their quest to reproduce themselves. Coincidentally, genes and viruses are b…

As much as it's debated in the US, abortion still is something.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#326

Post by [deleted] »

hycaria wrote: post #325
DoreenMichele wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe don't choose to have kids when you're making $9/hour or have a chaotic domestic life? Most children aren't actually planned. They occur because mother nature has spent millions of years perfecting the art of tricking people into liking sex. Or, as I sometimes say, our genes are like virii: They don't care how miserable they make you in their quest to reproduce themselves. Coincidentally, genes and viruses are b…

As much as it's debated in the US, abortion still is something.

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#327

Post by justaguyhere »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #309
qaq wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One option is considering moving. Regardless of your eng. skills if you are able to discuss requirements and communicate well you would be an asset for any smaller consulting company in eastern europe.

And to do that, they would need immediate stable income, or enough capital to live on until they found it. Probably both. That is the whole point: no one in this situation has either of these things. That is the group of people Sen. Hatch thinks does not deserve financial help.

After reading through (most of) the comments here, I am genuinely curious what we can do as individuals to help. It is pretty clear that the gov isn't too keen on helping (don't want to get into politics - just one look at the budget cuts is enough to prove this point).

So is there anything we can do? Protesting, running for public office etc makes the most sense but I am not built for it. What is the second best thing that an individual with a few dollars and few hours a week to spare do to help?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#328

Post by lotsofcows »

Dickens taught us to look at the poor and think, "There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford."

At some point this transformed into looking at the poor and thinking, "Loser."

Governments should lean on our media to mediate this message.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#329

Post by jokoon »

tensor_rank_0 wrote: post #174
kraig911 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to get people out of poverty than enrich people before that happens. It's easier to bring the extremely wealthy down to a certain level to accommodate for those that don't have the ability to get unlimited tries. See perspective:: http://www.templetons.com/brad/billg.html Wealth and safety nets give families chances where those in poverty can't afford to take. "Move across the country and change jobs or ris…

you listed a bunch of advantages of wealth that I dont think anyone would dispute. and you talk about taking that away. how is this supposed to help people who are already impoverished? it seems like you want there to be more people in poverty, not fewer. > http://www.templetons.com/brad/billg.html riddled with fallacies and calculated to produce envy. totally irrelevant to our discussion.

> and you talk about taking that away. how is this supposed to help people who are already impoverished? it seems like you want there to be more people in poverty, not fewer.

It's about income distribution.

It's true that the economy is not a cake you can split in several parts, so it's not a zero sum game, but I think that inequalities should be reduced, and that means taking from the ones who have, to give to those who have less.

And if you take from the ones who have the most, you are not creating poor people, you are just improving the balance.

And again, it's about the extremes, there is less need to touch the incomes of those in the middle.

I don't understand how taking from the rich to give to the poor would be a bad thing.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#330

Post by fastball »

analyst74 wrote: post #206
kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty. I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills. Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived…

  "Chinese poverty is different from American poverty because we weren't worried about starving."

  Mentions a mass starvation event in China only a generation before which probably killed the equivalent of 10% of the US population at the time.
You might want to think about that a bit more.
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