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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#271

Post by microcolonel »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #201
kraig911 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardest argument that I hate about the article in question. I will never stop living like tomorrow I could lose everything. I will forever keep some cash stashed a way. I will always keep canned chili in the cupboard. Every thunderstorm or inclement weather event I fill the bathtub up. Some may say "oh that's good that you do that" but to my wife it's border line paranoia.

I've read a bunch of personal finance books and I found that they recommend 3-6 months of expenses in savings as an "emergency fund." Of course, they usually mean in a bank, I don't know how literally you mean "cash." But if you have less than 3 months worth of expenses stashed, you're living somewhat precariously. The general population is absolutely terrible with money, so I would recommend taking random peoples' o…

> I don't think FEMA has a reputation for having borderline paranoia.

If anything, FEMA tends to grossly underestimate the impact of the incidents they may respond to; the public tends to grossly overestimate FEMA's capacity and interests in doing what is ultimately, for every animal and man since the dawn of time, their own job and no one else's.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#272

Post by conanbatt »

adrr wrote: post #67
redm wrote: post #15

I'm sure how people deal with stress and difficult situations varies from person to person. My personal story and 2-cents: When I was 17 I went through a period of near destitute. I was living on my own, my father had passed away, and I had dropped out of school. Yet, I found myself with some very good jobs, such as GE Capital, a big Oil and Gas companies IT department, etc. Regardless of the opportunity, my arroganc…

100% of society can't be brought out of poverty. Here's an example: If we motivated everyone to get a college education, we would have people flipping burgers who are college educated making min wage and living in poverty while struggling to put food on the table.

The malthusian argument. People outgrow their capacity to feed themselves.

Good thing it is not true at all, and has been debunked and ridiculed by economists over a century ago.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#273

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

mcphage wrote: post #192
skookumchuck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

> Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to. What’s the political philosophy that means you can help others as much as they need? Maybe we should talk about that one more.

Marxism.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - Karl Marx.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#274

Post by morgante »

tylerhou wrote: post #29
rdiddly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but there's a subtlety: The dollars saved in those minutes are worth a different amount to a rich person depending on their relative impact on the sale. $50 off of $300 is a 1/6 discount, so a "good deal" that they will (somewhat recreationally) decide to go and get. But they still don't inherently care that much about $50. You could say if they make lets say ten times what I do, they probably care 1/10th as m…

The rational answer is that if you would drive 30 minutes to save $50 off a $300 tablet, then you should also drive 30 minutes to save $50 off a $1000 tablet. You've described the psychology of why a wealthy person might not drive the 30 minutes for the $1000 tablet well (but still will spend the time to save money on the $300 tablet), but that choice is still irrational.

That is too simple of an answer, as it ignores the added utility from getting a "good deal" on the tablet. People feel good/smart for finding good discounts and they can even brag about the great price to their friends.

Without that added utility, saving $50 alone might not be worth 30 minutes to them.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#275

Post by Hextinium »

MrLeap wrote: post #179
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

As income inequality increases, relative percentage comparisons like this become more infuriating than comforting. The more money you have, the dumber you can be with it and still be guaranteed survival. At a certain level of poverty, you have to operate at peak financial efficiency to live a mean lifespan. 50,000$ properly spent could change the course of human history. It could supply the nearby treatment center fo…

I have very often thought what would happen if I was to suddenly come into a substantial amount of wealth and this is what I would do with a no holds barred method of paying skilled people to do cool things that they do not have the money to do otherwise. There are incredibly talented people that if given 20k to make their Magnus opus they would make the most breathtaking and increadible stuff imagined.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#276

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

draugadrotten wrote: post #269
gizmo686 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty. However, if you define poverty in absolute terms, then there is no fundamental reason why we cannot reach 100% non poverty. All that is necessary is for society to produce enough "stuff" that, when divided by the total population, is still greater than the poverty threshold. In pr…

> Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty. This is indeed how it is defined in many wellfare states eg in Europe. "People are considered at risk of monetary poverty when their equivalised disposable income (after social transfers) is below the at-risk-of-poverty threshold. This is set at 60 % of the national median equiv…

No. "60% of the national median" is not the same thing as fixing a percentile, and it is perfectly possible to not have poverty under that definition.

For example, in a country with ten people whose incomes are 7, 7, 8, 8, 10, 10, 12, 50, 47212 and 4000000000000000, there is no poverty after that definition (the median would be 10). As you can see, it doesn't even need to be a very egalitarian society!

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#277

Post by contingencies »

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic

Stay Hungry. Stay Foolish. - Steve Jobs

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#278

Post by [deleted] »

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

[deleted]

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#279

Post by MarkMc »

The proportion of the global population living on less than $1.90 per person per day has fallen—from 18 percent in 2008 to 11 percent in 2013, according to the World Bank. In the United States, however, the poverty rate has been more stubborn—41 million people lived below the country’s poverty line in 2016, about 13 percent of the population, nearly the same rate as in 2007.

Is this a fair comparison? I thought that the poverty line in the US was defined relative to median income. If the definition is changed to $X per day after inflation then maybe the US doesn't look so bad?

Also I would like to see some kind of adjustment for immigration. Imagine that the US lifts 10 million citizens out of poverty and at the same time accepts 10 million poor immigrants. Is it fair to say the US has made no progress on poverty?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#280

Post by maksimum »

jjeaff wrote: post #173
megy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage only really encourages No, it also means those people are paid a liveable wage, as opposed to a pittance.

You could call it corporate welfare. Or you could consider the 3 to 4% profit margins these companies have and assume that they might not sustain that number of employees at a higher wage.

This comment implies that these companies going out of business would be a bad thing. In the short term, definitely.

But jobs are just means to an end for most people. Why can't government aim to simply provide those ends?

The obvious counterargument is that the free market is more efficient. But the US government has shown itself to be very capable in providing some services to the entire country. The military has done a great job keep the country safe. There just doesn't seem to be the willpower to create the navy/army/airforce of food, shelter, healthcare and education.

I guess the issue is that it's hard to get elected if you promise to make things better 20 years from now.

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