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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#221

Post by mrep »

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

> The poor and destitute simply need help.

Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#222

Post by movedx »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #45
bojackstorkman wrote: post #30

I love how when this comes up, it's people either saying "Here was my experience when I was poor in the past." or "Here is what I think about economics or the wording of this article." Don't get me wrong, I know what website I'm on. But in all seriousness, is there room for currently poor people in this discussion?

I was homeless for nearly 6 years. I got off the street last September. I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st. I fairly frequently give my opinions on HN about poverty, homelessness, housing, women's issues and the negative impact being female has on my earned income. I try to be judicious and not do it too often. Testifying from firsthand ex…

> I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st.

Are you OK? Do you need some financial support? Can you afford to eat? I can offer to buy food and have it delivered to you, or a near by shop (or something) if need be.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#223

Post by dvtv75 »

jjeaff wrote: post #158
MrLeap wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also grew up poor, and seen people of all income levels be cognitively lazy. I felt like I really started to get the way success works when I saw successful people waste money. I saw individuals make flippant decisions to throw away 50,000$ on software that their organization will never use. MSDN licenses for 100 people that can't and never will code. I've seen a salary man whose job it was to install software on tab…

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

Something to consider:

On HN a few weeks back, I read someone's comment that some poor people are poor because they own cheap cars that cost a fortune in repairs because they're always breaking down, preventing them from saving up for a better one that won't need repaired so often, which would allow them to save and get ahead.

Maybe that's not always the kind of decision-making that keeps you poor after all.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#224

Post by rboyd »

tjr225 wrote: post #195
skookumchuck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

Which, in the case of most of the people who currently hold our wealth, turns out to be not very much at all. Are you surprised?

"our wealth"?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#225

Post by tomcam »

MrLeap wrote: post #179
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

As income inequality increases, relative percentage comparisons like this become more infuriating than comforting. The more money you have, the dumber you can be with it and still be guaranteed survival. At a certain level of poverty, you have to operate at peak financial efficiency to live a mean lifespan. 50,000$ properly spent could change the course of human history. It could supply the nearby treatment center fo…

>pay two unemployed people in rural Missouri to make tiny metal sculptures for model towns for 6-12 months.

Wait... what?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#226

Post by jopsen »

mrep wrote: post #221
kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

> The poor and destitute simply need help. Upvote for the story but "simply need help" is not a policy a government can use to solve the problem. Granted, solving this problem for everyone is nigh impossible but maybe you can give us an example of a policy that would have helped out your individual family to give us some ideas?

When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers.

Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change.

Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#227

Post by ilaksh »

Poverty is caused by low or no wages. Not a mindset or lack of education or any other BS. I am technically below the poverty line working as a software engineer on a startup and I work hard. If we made some money or got funded then I would be less poor.

The structural issue is unequal distribution of resources. It's not a personal mental health problem or weakness or other BS used to cover for racism.

Also since I have had less money I have made better decisions not worse. Because I have to.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#228

Post by DoreenMichele »

movedx wrote: post #222
DoreenMichele wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was homeless for nearly 6 years. I got off the street last September. I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st. I fairly frequently give my opinions on HN about poverty, homelessness, housing, women's issues and the negative impact being female has on my earned income. I try to be judicious and not do it too often. Testifying from firsthand ex…

> I am still quite poor. In fact, my bank account currently has zero in it and I don't get paid again until the 1st. Are you OK? Do you need some financial support? Can you afford to eat? I can offer to buy food and have it delivered to you, or a near by shop (or something) if need be.

This is the kind of comment I really hate seeing. It is almost always virtue signaling. People genuinely looking to help have zero problem finding my PayPal account or emailing me. The people who publicly offer assistance usually wind up really pissed off at me if I rudely try to take them up on it. It is gauche of me to take them seriously. They were just trying to look good in public for free. I am supposed to have too much shame or something to say "Yes, please." It also just puts me in an incredibly awkward position.

I find the entire thing annoying in the extreme because I have a Patreon account to help fund my blogging and I completely suck at promoting that. I also do freelance writing and resume editing and I can't get traction with that.

I sincerely appreciate it anytime anyone actually kicks a few bucks my way when I am in crisis. But I would much prefer that people take me seriously, fund my Patreon and/or hire me for paid writing so that bitching about my shit life on the internet can stop being one of my more lucrative skills.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#229

Post by skookumchuck »

tjr225 wrote: post #195
skookumchuck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is not about not helping others. Not even remotely. Libertarianism means you can help others as much as you want to.

Which, in the case of most of the people who currently hold our wealth, turns out to be not very much at all. Are you surprised?

Given that about a third of the country would identify themselves as progressives, it's hard to see if they gave of their own free will, there wouldn't be plenty of help to the disadvantaged.

But I rarely (never?) see any rhetoric in DNC politics about party members donating of their own free will to anything other than the Democratic party.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#230

Post by Simon_says »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #208
linkmotif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

Why do you assume someone can HAVE savings? I live in a Texas city. Rent here for a 2 bedroom apartment is over $1K a month. If you're a single mother of 2, you can expect $500 a month for EBT if you make $9 an hour. So after you get through paying your taxes, social security, medicare, etc... you're stuck with pocket change (that still has to go to electricity, gas for the car / maintenance) and use EBT to pay for y…

I think, but I'm not sure, that at her income level, the Earned Income Tax Credit will let her get a net refund from the federal government? And Texas doesn't tax income.

Savings have to come from the biggest choices in your life. You've already assumed a bunch of poor choices in your model of this hypothetical person. You didn't mention your city, but I found $400-500 2 bedroom apartments on a quick Craigslist search on the outskirts of Houston. Why is this person living in a (presumably expensive) city? The main reason to move to the city is better jobs, but if she's making $9-16/hour, she may as well live somewhere less expensive. A lot of people in that income bracket live with parents or other family. Why does she need 2 bedrooms? My wife grew up sharing a single bedroom apartment with 3 other people and until she moved to the USA, it never occurred to her that it was the slightest bit unusual. Kids adapt; they'll be fine in one room. Why is she a single mom? Where's dad? Is he dead? Shouldn't the life insurance payout cover this stuff? If he's alive, shouldn't he be kicking in support? Maybe don't choose to have kids when you're making $9/hour or have a chaotic domestic life?

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