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Doctors, Revolt

nytimes.com

151–160 of 178 posts

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an absurd and oft-repeated claim that taps into variations of the conspiracy thinking around 'doctors keeping the cure for cancer (or insert other condition here) secret' because powerful lobby groups insist that there is more money to be made in 'treating' than 'curing'. It is patently untrue. Firstly, it assumes that neither doctors, nor the scientists and researchers working in the companies and universiti…

> Your ignorance is not as valid as my knowledge and to assume that in your version of this myth that insurance companies (but in the more common version of this myth, Doctors, Pharmaceutical Companies etc) are primarially interested in keeping the population teetering on the edge to milk them dry is disingenuous. You really know how to talk to people haha. It seems like you were triggered by something I said even th…

> The fact that medical records are not electronic being a standard is laughable. I cannot speak for anyone else but the United States. HIPA laws are one of the reasons which makes it harder for researchers and doctors to actually get data they need to develop cures because of the need an individual signature for everyone.

In the US it is a standard that Medical Records are digitised. Unfortunately the existing eMRs are so awful that they decrease efficiency, so much so that many american clinics are removing them - [0, 1, 2]. If you think that the limiting factor on advances in medical research are access to digital records, you are severely misguided.

We have the same control on medical school spots in Australia. We train 1 per 6,285 people per year. You train 1 per 16,150 (roughly). However you also have Nurse Practitioners and a range of other allied health professionals and are a huge importer of overseas Doctors. It's not an ideal solution for the country. In Australia the medical colleges can limit training positions and this cartel behaviour has been the focus of the ACCC a number of times. On the other hand, How can you ensure that people are appropriately trained in the field they are representing, and going to be a net positive to patient safety? I have some ideas that I will be trying if I get to Series B.

I can't speak to your inventor of the X-Ray machine but would suggest that if in the last 18 years he has still been unable to get a market for it, or to launch it himself, than probably the technology has other problems than having a distributor. Disruptive technologies always find a way.

Let's be very clear: there are a lot of problems with healthcare, particularly in the United States. One of the biggest problems worldwide is that healthcare is a demand-inelastic good. When someone needs it, they will pay whatever they can to get it. In my opinion the US model is so completely fucked that the only way I see it being fixed is by transitioning to a post-scarcity economy. An illustrative example: When I was undergoing my medical school elective in Boston in 2013, which under Romney introduced State-wide access to insurance, I observed people accessing their care inefficiently. For example, Tram Drivers coming to Beth Israel Deaconess to have their Lipoma operated on by the Professor of Plastic Surgery at Harvard, because they had insurance. Normally this patient would have presented to the County Hospital, which in the US is the most efficient provider of care, but because they were able to access insurance, they wanted gold-plated healthcare. This is an example of 'universal care' twisting the market forces even more, as the most efficient providers of care are put under more pressure.

[0] https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/it/study-docs-spend-more-ti... [1] https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/practices/unhappy-ehr-one-p... [2] https://twitter.com/gphymel/status/952559168975769600

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say you're a gastroenterologist and in the video, your patient was interviewed by a pathologist. The pathologist would ask pathologist questions, but you need to know gastroenterologist answers. How do you get them from the video of a pathologist asking pathologist questions?

In this case gastroenterologist goes to a patient and asks questions he is interested in. The point is that a patient doesn't have to tell the same story over and over again. The problem is that gastroenterologist would now have to have its own video, which would probably be time-consuming for the third doc.

Patients report higher satisfaction with their medical care the longer that they spend engaging with clinicians. Even if this was a practical solution, by deploying cameras and ensuring that the resulting files were accessible and categorised simply and easily (no easy IT solution!) it doesn't change the fact that by reducing the amount of time a doctor (any doctor) spends with patients is going to worsen their outocmes, even if they are self-reported. Anyway, we already spend far too much time not with patients. And how is this any different from reading a 'transcript' of the last interaction a patient had with a Doctor

[0] https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/it/study-docs-spend-more-ti...

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#153
post #58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are regurgitating a "misused funds" talking point that Republicans always fall back on when facts don't support their position. The US isn't that out of line with spending: US is $15,171 per student while Switzerland is $14,922 per student. US is 7.3% of GDP while Denmark is 8% of GDP. Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-glob... There is not some magic bank of "misused" money waiting t…

1) any SUSTAINED focused resource improves educational outcomes 2) resource allocation is strongly sub-linear--it takes FAR more than 10% more resource to cause 10% improvement in outcome from our current system I’d like to learn more about these 2 points, particularly the first (how it’s measured, etc). Is there any specific work of the Gates foundation you could point to?

It's been a while since I chewed through the Gates foundation stuff but this one seems up-to-date about early programs:

https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20...

Page 16-17 talks about known effective programs and their costs. Note that the more expensive programs (almost all exceeding $15K per student--sometimes dramatically) are almost always more effective. Under $10K is almost uniformly not helpful and the further you get from 10K the less helpful they get. You can have effective programs for $10K, but it's really hard. Money really does make things easier.

From Page 21: "At the highest level, this “doing many things well” requirement results in a high degree of difficulty and is a key reason why high-quality early learning that sticks is so infrequently seen."

From Page 22: "ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF HIGH-QUALITY PRE-K THAT STICKS"

"3. Teachers delivering high-quality instruction is a key differentiator between early learning that sticks and early learning that, more than likely, will not stick. ...

4. All exemplar programs have two adults in the classroom—one lead teacher and one paraprofessional/aide— at all times. ...

5. All exemplar programs have maximum class size of 22 children or fewer and adult-to-child ratios ranging from 2:15 to 2:22. Adult-to-child ratios at the lower end of the range are particularly advantageous for classrooms where a significant number of English language learners (ELLs) are present and/or where a significant number of children with special needs are present.

6. Lead teachers with a B.A. plus suitable early learning credential, paid at same level as K-3 teachers. ...

7. Dosage. Three of the four exemplars offer pre-K that runs 6-6.5 hours/day, for 180-205 days/year. The other (Maryland) offers full-day (6.5 hours/day, 180 days/year) and part-day (3 hours/day, 180 days/year) options. It is clear from the exemplars and consistent with research findings that within high-quality pre-K programs the dosage required is related to the size of the achievement gap that must be closed for each low-income child. For low-income children who enter pre-K already on a trajectory to be kindergarten-ready, a high-quality part- day option may be sufficient. For most low-income children, at least one year in full-day, high-quality pre-K is needed to be kindergarten-ready. For low-income children for whom English is not spoken at home, children with special needs, and children who are significantly below age-level competency in one or more domains, it is likely that two years of high- quality, full-day pre-K is ideal and, in fact, may be necessary for most of these children to be kindergarten- ready on time. "

It goes on to other things as well.

And these exemplars are at the $10K-$12K per student mark, roughly. And even successful ones still can't get funding--"New Jersey was poised to expand the Abbott Pre-K Program in 2013, but budget pressures have delayed that expansion.".

And the Gates foundation is VERY gently suggesting that all the mediocre, non-useful programs should be shut down in preference to spending ALL that money on the most underperforming students. While this is likely the best use of resource, it is going to be a politically unviable one.

The upshot is that teaching properly is expensive, and money really DOES have an impact. And the effectiveness "breakpoint" is somewhere around $12K with some adjustmemts for cost of living. And your primary expense is the teacher vs class size--see page 17. The cost per student with a teacher at BA I qualification ranges from $10K with a 15 student class size to $8K with a 20 student class size. Of course, teaching effectiveness is inversely related to class size--pick your optimization point.

I don't always like the Gates foundation because I think they sometimes helicopter in, muck things up, leave, and then other people have to clean up the mess. However, they have been quite forthright with publishing their information and do acknowledge when they have NOT succeeded even when it goes against their agenda. That I applaud.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two reasons. First, it's a clinical quality measure that needs to be collected by law. The government mandates that you collect certain data about X% of patients you are in contact with and transmit that data to relevant parties or else you will be penalized financially by Medicare. Also, BP, weight, and temperature are important diagnostic indicators

Someone didn't read the article. "Checking things like temperature, blood pressure and respiratory rate every four hours on hospitalized patients has been the standard of care since the 1890s, yet scant data indicates that it helps."

Someone didn't read the parent comment. The article talks about re-taking of history and vitals during care transitions, after the patient has been admitted. The parent comment asked about taking those measures during admission / triage and checkups when the healthcare team doesn't have any data yet. Those are two different things.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case gastroenterologist goes to a patient and asks questions he is interested in. The point is that a patient doesn't have to tell the same story over and over again. The problem is that gastroenterologist would now have to have its own video, which would probably be time-consuming for the third doc.

Patients report higher satisfaction with their medical care the longer that they spend engaging with clinicians. Even if this was a practical solution, by deploying cameras and ensuring that the resulting files were accessible and categorised simply and easily (no easy IT solution!) it doesn't change the fact that by reducing the amount of time a doctor (any doctor) spends with patients is going to worsen their outoc…

> And how is this any different from reading a 'transcript' of the last interaction a patient had with a Doctor

watching body language, pauses, etc vs just reading can give different information. and multiple people reviewing that over a spell will yield different/new/conflicting insights. but it's different than reading a transcript.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#156
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm that basic details frequently get misrecorded (here in Toronto). At a recent visit, the surgical staff received such a broken telephone version of my original reports and activity in the hospital, that when I overheard the surgeon discussing with the students prior to the procedure I literally burst out laughing (despite having an appendicitis waiting to be removed). This is just how records like this wor…

I was at the hospital with a kidney infection last month. I get these regularly. I knew it was a kidney infection. I described my symptoms and the intake nurse agreed it sounded like a kidney infection. I told them my heart rate was faster than normal-- it's usually at 73, but it was now at 100. They took my vitals, which showed a fast heart rate (110) but I watched the nurse record a normal heart rate. Okay, whateve…

My wife has also experienced having a kidney infection with a clean urine sample. It happens.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#157
post #10
post #6

Health care and education are IMO the next two major car wrecks coming for America. Both are like patients with similar symptoms (indicative of the general disease of America.) - They treat the customers like replaceable widgets - Costs are spiraling out of control. ($2-3000/day hospital, $3.4 TRILLION in total health spending [this equals the entire federal budget]) - Doctors / teachers often don't seem to communica…

> Friend's mother was recently in hospital, multiple doctors thru a single day, each one had to completely relearn what was going on. What's the alternative? 24 hour shifts for the doctor and the new doctor each day needs to relearn everything? Having to relearn everything might be a problem, depending on what it actually means, but as long as we want a normal human being as a doctor, they will cycle over time as peo…

So I took my dad to the hospital a couple times in his last year or so, and I think the main thing every patient needs but doesn’t necessarily have is someone to do the top-level coordination. There might be a surgeon and a hospitalist and a cardiologist and a neurologist and whoever, but no one is actually in charge. Most hospitalized patients mentally check out—humans don’t do well in captivity—so unless you have a family member advocating for you, you’re kind of fucked. Doctors come and go, but none of them take responsibility for the patient’s overall well-being.

It doesn’t require 24-hour shifts or even a medical degree to do this kind of coordination. I did it and I have no medical training whatsoever. But it was pretty important work, and my dad would have been lost without it.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#158
post #153
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) any SUSTAINED focused resource improves educational outcomes 2) resource allocation is strongly sub-linear--it takes FAR more than 10% more resource to cause 10% improvement in outcome from our current system I’d like to learn more about these 2 points, particularly the first (how it’s measured, etc). Is there any specific work of the Gates foundation you could point to?

It's been a while since I chewed through the Gates foundation stuff but this one seems up-to-date about early programs: https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20... Page 16-17 talks about known effective programs and their costs. Note that the more expensive programs (almost all exceeding $15K per student--sometimes dramatically) are almost always more effective. Under $10K is almost uniformly not…

Fantastic, thanks for putting time in your comment.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#159
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at the hospital with a kidney infection last month. I get these regularly. I knew it was a kidney infection. I described my symptoms and the intake nurse agreed it sounded like a kidney infection. I told them my heart rate was faster than normal-- it's usually at 73, but it was now at 100. They took my vitals, which showed a fast heart rate (110) but I watched the nurse record a normal heart rate. Okay, whateve…

My wife has also experienced having a kidney infection with a clean urine sample. It happens.

Do you know why she had a clean urine sample? Mistakes happen, but my experience as a whole in the hospital that night lends emphasis to the mistake. It is not just that the infection was missed accidentally, it was that the management of my diagnosis and my stay seemed so ill-informed and counter-intuitive to my needs.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#160
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife has also experienced having a kidney infection with a clean urine sample. It happens.

Do you know why she had a clean urine sample? Mistakes happen, but my experience as a whole in the hospital that night lends emphasis to the mistake. It is not just that the infection was missed accidentally, it was that the management of my diagnosis and my stay seemed so ill-informed and counter-intuitive to my needs.

She had been drinking a lot of cranberry juice -- the folk remedy for a UTI. That may have had something to do with her clean sample, though this is just speculation. Most of the times that she's had these infections, her samples have had detectable bacteria, so this was an unusual case even for her.

BTW, she had so many of these infections that her doctor eventually referred her to a urologist, who put her on a daily antibiotic (cephalexin, aka Keflex) as a preventative. She hasn't had another once since starting that, though there have been a couple of times that she felt like she might be getting one, and took an extra cephalexin, which was sufficient. I wish we had known about this option sooner.

Also: my pointing out that UTIs can sometimes fail to show up in the urine test was not intended as a defense of the way the hospital treated you. Quite the contrary: doctors should know that that can happen. My wife and I were not happy with the way she was treated on this occasion as well — it took hours to convince them to start the antibiotics, and she was in a lot of pain.

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