Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working • Hacker News Board

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#151

Post by Chyzwar » Sun, Feb 25, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #32

ekidd wrote: post #8

I'm deeply skeptical of any explanation that claims that we have both a "shortage of labor" and "downward pressure on wages": > If men and women from the ages 25 to 54 took part in the labor market... [t]hat would be more fuel for the U.S. economy and a bigger source of workers for businesses crying out about a shortage of labor... > Trade with China flooded the U.S. with cheap imports, forced domestic firms to shift…

There was a much better article posted to HN not long ago that did a deeper dive into what's going on: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/02/19/technological-unemploy... The overall conclusion was that automation (and, we can assume, globalization) was essentially digging away at "middle-skilled" jobs, like manufacturing. These are jobs where employees must invest a certain amount of time and training to be paid well, a…

My uncle immigrant living in the US, working as a cleaner, very poor English (bad hearing) and his wife managed to get a terraced house in a decent area of Chicago.

When I see teenagers with iPhones and their parents buying Tesla cars I can see why they will never afford a house. Average American is unable to save money, most overspend. Combine this with poor education and unwillingness to learn or relocate.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#152

Post by madaxe_again » Sun, Feb 25, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #146

madaxe_again wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sold my equity back to the business when I left. It wasn't crazy money, but enough to tide me over while transitioning to self-suffiency - I'm now the proud owner of a shack and a few acres of halfway decent arable land in a remote corner of Uruguay. $25,000 outlay. Becoming a citizen and all that is easy here. I know it's not an option open to everyone, and I'll be honest and say that a lot of the folks I've met h…

> I'm now the proud owner of a shack and a few acres of halfway decent arable land in a remote corner of Uruguay. So you became a farmer? How's that working out?

It’s very early days, and it’s hard work, but it’s rewarding, and real, and people here talk to each other and help each other, even if you’re the mad gringo who can barely mumble his way through a conversation in Spanish.

I also wouldn’t call myself a farmer - rather a smallholder experimenting with permaculture. Cost of living here is low if you buy food from local markets, etc., so I’ve a few years to make it work before I end up totally broke.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#153

Post by elinmigrante » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 12:24 AM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #77

hycaria wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do the immigrants manage to go by and live with the same wage?

They're committing document and identity fraud and dodging taxes. They're breaking housing laws by living multiple unrelated people (beyond legal capacity) per dwelling. We just had 9 illegal aliens evicted from a 2BR house not too far away. Good for them (probably a step up from 3rd world conditions), but bad if you want to maintain some quality of life.

Your first sentence is a bit of an oxymoron. Allow me to explain.

Without resorting to identity fraud, its nearly impossible for undocumented immigrants to find work because most employers require a social security number for payroll purposes. Even though they use a fake identity, they still get a paycheck, they still pay payroll taxes and pay into Medicare and Social Security. However, they get none of the benefits. Undocumented immigrants have no other choice but to commit identity fraud. Unfortunately for them, its a necessary evil. Their intent is not to dodge taxes.

I'm not saying all undocumented immigrants pay taxes but most are not opposed to it. A little google search will bring up plenty of research into this topic.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/oct/02/...

https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/undocumentedtaxes.pdf

To your point about them breaking housing laws, all I can say is that its true but this isn't something that is limited to undocumented immigrants. Just take a look at the hacker houses in the bay. Maybe what is needed is more affordable housing.

I see where you're coming from but blaming undocumented immigrants for lowering the quality of life is a disservice. The US benefits immensely from undocumented immigrants but its something few want to admit.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#154

Post by elinmigrante » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 12:30 AM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #49

I personally know several people who are no longer competitive in various jobs due to the massive influx of illegal immigrants. These are tradesmen, landscapers, and others who used to be able to support their families and live in the area. Many of them now commute long distances (so they can live in lower cost areas) for far less pay. Their children are not following them into these jobs. And its not because they're…

I call BS that its due to "illegal" immigrants. Undocumented immigrants mostly work in agriculture, the restaurant industry, or taking care of american households. The few blue-collar jobs that undocumented immigrants do take are the low hanging fruit that require little to no education or skill. If americans expected to forever be able to support their families on these types of jobs, then some people really need to step up their game.

These people are no longer competitive because they failed to innovate. They're priced out because their own government is and has been unwilling to do anything to help the non-wealthy and alleviate the level of income inequality.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#155

Post by badpun » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 9:37 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #152

badpun wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm now the proud owner of a shack and a few acres of halfway decent arable land in a remote corner of Uruguay. So you became a farmer? How's that working out?

It’s very early days, and it’s hard work, but it’s rewarding, and real, and people here talk to each other and help each other, even if you’re the mad gringo who can barely mumble his way through a conversation in Spanish. I also wouldn’t call myself a farmer - rather a smallholder experimenting with permaculture. Cost of living here is low if you buy food from local markets, etc., so I’ve a few years to make it work…

Interesting. From some accounts I've read on the Internet, there's a big risk in Latin America that the locals will just treat you as a gringo with a huge (for them) amounts of money, that they can extract out of you via overcosted services and goods - all the while being super-friendly. Maybe Urugway is not as poor as some of the other countries, so it's less of an issue.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#156

Post by PatchMonkey » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #8

I'm deeply skeptical of any explanation that claims that we have both a "shortage of labor" and "downward pressure on wages": > If men and women from the ages 25 to 54 took part in the labor market... [t]hat would be more fuel for the U.S. economy and a bigger source of workers for businesses crying out about a shortage of labor... > Trade with China flooded the U.S. with cheap imports, forced domestic firms to shift…

Or, we have too many people for the jobs that are hiring Americans. That pretty well explains both.

Trump would be right to constrict access to H1B1 visas for foreign workers in the US, in this case.

But we also have a problem of access to those coding bootcamps - everyone has a smartphone, not everyone has a modern desktop/laptop. As far as coding bootcamps, there's also this: https://medium.com/@melissamcewen/who-killed-the-junior-deve...

The same in the field of law: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/opinion/too-many-law-stud...

Here's what employers are saying: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/03/28/surveys-find...

But a realistic explanation? Monopsony: too few employers competing for workers with any given skill set. https://slate.com/business/2018/01/after-all-the-talk-about-...

Monopsony is getting some attention: https://www.thenation.com/article/does-monopoly-power-explai...

And here: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/ask-the-headhunter/ask-...

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#157

Post by madaxe_again » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #155

madaxe_again wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very early days, and it’s hard work, but it’s rewarding, and real, and people here talk to each other and help each other, even if you’re the mad gringo who can barely mumble his way through a conversation in Spanish. I also wouldn’t call myself a farmer - rather a smallholder experimenting with permaculture. Cost of living here is low if you buy food from local markets, etc., so I’ve a few years to make it work…

Interesting. From some accounts I've read on the Internet, there's a big risk in Latin America that the locals will just treat you as a gringo with a huge (for them) amounts of money, that they can extract out of you via overcosted services and goods - all the while being super-friendly. Maybe Urugway is not as poor as some of the other countries, so it's less of an issue.

Uruguay is really not like the rest of Latin America - I wouldn’t live in say, Argentina, Brazil, Chile or Paraguay for the exact reason you describe. Uruguayans view their neighbours with a mixture of astonishment and derision. Lots of political and economic exiles here too - it’s a nice little bastion of highly educated atheistic liberal democracy in the heart of South America.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#158

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #145

user5994461 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same in every company. Things need to run 24/7 and there are never enough people to take care of it. There will always be some suckers who are pushed to work overnight and week end.

My company has people hired (production assurance) especially for this. Being on call is part of their job description. I suspect it's a common arrangement.

Anyone who is skilled enough to do that could get a better job that pays more and doesn't require to work on call.

Employees tend to leave the job or the workforce altogether. The ones who did not yet are in short supply.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#159

Post by Torwald » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

elinmigrante wrote: post #153

tomohawk wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're committing document and identity fraud and dodging taxes. They're breaking housing laws by living multiple unrelated people (beyond legal capacity) per dwelling. We just had 9 illegal aliens evicted from a 2BR house not too far away. Good for them (probably a step up from 3rd world conditions), but bad if you want to maintain some quality of life.

Your first sentence is a bit of an oxymoron. Allow me to explain. Without resorting to identity fraud, its nearly impossible for undocumented immigrants to find work because most employers require a social security number for payroll purposes. Even though they use a fake identity, they still get a paycheck, they still pay payroll taxes and pay into Medicare and Social Security. However, they get none of the benefits.…

Those employers who employ illegals do not require such a SSN. It's the whole point of employing illegals, to not have the regular overhead.

Re: Why 3.5M Americans in their prime years aren’t working

#160

Post by shullbitt0r » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 7:10 PM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #8

I'm deeply skeptical of any explanation that claims that we have both a "shortage of labor" and "downward pressure on wages": > If men and women from the ages 25 to 54 took part in the labor market... [t]hat would be more fuel for the U.S. economy and a bigger source of workers for businesses crying out about a shortage of labor... > Trade with China flooded the U.S. with cheap imports, forced domestic firms to shift…

catch 22; you need workers to make money, but you need money to make workers.