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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#71

Post by grzm »

rsync wrote: post #70
ztjio wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

"So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes" Is that how iDevices work ? You do data backup with your mp3 player ? Is there really no Finder equivalent on an iphone ? Genuinely curious ...

Yup. iTunes has been a central hub ever since the iPod. Once they had the syncing work there, it made a certain amount of sense to use it for all iDevices and interaction with Apple's media, as it was available on both Windows and macOS. It's been a painful and unhappy evolution, in my experience (and those of many others from what I've read), however.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#72

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #60
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not according to the forbes article, but that is indicating sales in quarter rather than overall marketshare (Apple sold more phones than Xiaomi in Q4 17, see https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/25/chinas-smartphone-market-i... ). Apple is not doing poorly in China by any economic measure, but ya they don't sell many $200 Xiaomi/Huawei phones. I'm sure that Apple wins consistently based on phone sales revenue, even if the…

Apple got some good number with iPhoneX launch it seems, after several years' of decline in market share. They're no where close to getting killed though. The fact it's moving servers to China is most likely going to have positive effect on their sales, not negative.

The X was basically designed for China, you can’t show off with a design that is 3 generations old already! Apple didn’t bother updating their ID for 3 years (6, 6s, 7), which is why sales were so tepid in China for the last two years. The X fixed that.

The effect of iCloud moving will be mostly neutral. As long as WeChat continues to work on iPhone, whatever iCloud does won’t be very significant. I doubt most iPhone users in china even know what iCloud is.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#73

Post by gonehome »

snuxoll wrote: post #56
vengefulduck wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage uses short RSA 1280-bit keys which could be cracked by a well funded attacker. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

1280-bit keys are still mostly sufficient for now, this isn’t a website where every party is relying on the key of the server being heavily resistant to protects millions of users - every device has a unique key. Still, you are correct that a determined adversary, potentially one capable of purchasing a quantum computer with enough quibits could factor the device key. It would be nice to see Apple move to a large eno…

I don’t think there any quantum computers yet? The last I heard there was one example of factoring 15 and I think it assumed the factors?

Did something change?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#74

Post by snuxoll »

gonehome wrote: post #73
snuxoll wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1280-bit keys are still mostly sufficient for now, this isn’t a website where every party is relying on the key of the server being heavily resistant to protects millions of users - every device has a unique key. Still, you are correct that a determined adversary, potentially one capable of purchasing a quantum computer with enough quibits could factor the device key. It would be nice to see Apple move to a large eno…

I don’t think there any quantum computers yet? The last I heard there was one example of factoring 15 and I think it assumed the factors? Did something change?

True ones are still off in the near future, ones with enough quibits for Shor’s algorithm are far enough away for now as well - which is why I generally feel safe with the current level of cryptography Apple uses with iMessage.

I won’t underestimate the rate at which they are developed though, it takes 2x the key size as the number of quibits to run Shor’s algorithm - ~2600 is a lot smaller than 4096, and even then who knows how much time we have until that happens.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#75

Post by Markoff »

saagarjha wrote: post #39
gruez wrote: post #3

>When Apple Inc begins hosting Chinese users’ iCloud accounts in a new Chinese data center 1. get vpn 2. create US icloud account 3. ??? 4. profit?

VPNs are becoming increasingly hard to acquire in China.

it's not problem to acquire but to find running one reliably

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#76

Post by Markoff »

rqs wrote: post #53
echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

> I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns" Does this mean anything? You also breathe polluted air like "most people", do you want new fresh air then? The reason of "__INSERT ACTION HERE__ won't practically have any impact on 'privacy' or 'human rights concerns'" is becaus…

you can't do IT business in China without sleeping with gov in one bed, so it doesn't really matter what people want, whatever you want company it's not allowed to provide

only reason gov doesn't care about imessage is either because everybody use Wechat or they know already how to read your conversations even there

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#77

Post by abalone »

techrede wrote: post #63
abalone wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud You can say better than that. iCloud is more secure than your average service (especially in China). It end to end encrypts the most sensitive data (keychain) for example, and iMessage has managed to stay alive so far.

Yes, perhaps that's true but it doesn't mean that Apple is completely in the clear on this issue. A much more detailed account of iCloud security can be found on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326

Nobody said they were clear of anything, just more secure than your average China-based service. (I have the top comment on that thread btw.)

I should also add that locked notes in iOS are end-to-end encrypted. Those are pretty easy to use for folks who are not "technically sophisticated"; you just unlock them with your face/fingerprint.

When you add that to secure keychain storage, iMessage (broadest end-to-end encrypted messaging system permitted in China), secure Siri data (imagine what a government could monitor if they owned the Alexa cloud)... Apple offers a significantly more secure service that is still easy to use by the general public.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#78

Post by ztjio »

rsync wrote: post #70
ztjio wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

"So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes" Is that how iDevices work ? You do data backup with your mp3 player ? Is there really no Finder equivalent on an iphone ? Genuinely curious ...

First, it's relevant to understand the history of what made Apple the behemoth they are today and no matter what random outlier opinions about iTunes you see, it's absolutely iTunes + iPod and what that brought to the general public for managing media and having a great portable media experience 15 years ago.

So yeah iTunes is still a core concern when it comes to managing iOS devices of certain types. When iPhone came out the primary selling points included it being an iPod, were you there? I was. There is no way in hell they were going to let go of the signature usability boon that people relied on and made them rich.

So yeah, iPhone was managed by iTunes and for a long time it was the only way to manage media, contacts, etc. on it or do that sort of thing. iPad was included in this, as well.

Over time, alternative options for managing your device data and such have been implemented. Today you can use iOS devices without ever once connecting to iTunes if you want. Sure. On the device there is a file browser though it's semi sandboxed as you can imagine. You can backup to the cloud if you want hence this discussion. It's all independent. If you want.

However, iTunes still provides some very useful abilities. Besides offering a vastly improved UI for managing your media, it offers things like full image restores, deep encrypted backups (requiring no internet access to restore) and recovery features. You can place data directly into individual app sandboxes, or copy videos/music/etc. directly to device.

Despite what another commenter mentioned, I very much doubt these features will be removed. Maybe they will move out of iTunes. A long time ago there used to be a tool called iSync that was dedicated to device sync/interactions on Mac OS X and I could see that kind of approach being revived. It's very nice to have an OS provided, reliable way to recover a bricked phone, or recover backups without blowing an entire weekend of downloading/installing not to mention data usage restrictions many people still endure.

Anyway, TL;DR: you can use iTunes but you don't have to because history.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#79

Post by dis-sys »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58
echevil wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not killed for sure, but it used to have bigger market share

Not according to the forbes article, but that is indicating sales in quarter rather than overall marketshare (Apple sold more phones than Xiaomi in Q4 17, see https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/25/chinas-smartphone-market-i... ). Apple is not doing poorly in China by any economic measure, but ya they don't sell many $200 Xiaomi/Huawei phones. I'm sure that Apple wins consistently based on phone sales revenue, even if the…

it depends on your definition of market share - whether it is quarterly shipment or % of phones on carrier networks.

apple devices are a few times more expensive than say Xiaomi, they thus stay in people's pocket for much longer. for shipment data, Apple's figure is not that fancy any more, they count for only 8% of the shipment in Q2 2017.

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-samsung-are-losing-...

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#80

Post by drdaeman »

echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

Here in Russia we have a (somewhat niche) meme "we've only won" (keeping the good look to the bad play, typically used ironically).

Each time our wise government protects us from something unnecessary or dangerous (like ban on European dairy products or LinkedIn storing data abroad) we're only winning from this, as almost no one needed that anyway, and that now our own positions are even stronger, etc.

I can't help myself but find very close resemblance here. ;)

Just saying.

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