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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#61

Post by techrede »

saagarjha wrote: post #38
pmlnr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. I'm completely pro-privacy, but I need to ask: why would ordinary people's ordinary data need better security? Even if iCloud might be decrypted by the government. If it's data like bills, government issued photos of ID cards, family photos, it will most…

Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government.

> Almost everyone does something that can be construed as being illegal. By allowing unfettered access to private information, this makes it much easier for laws to be selectively enforced in ways that benefit the government.

Exactly. It could be something as simple as guilt by association. Even though you might not have done anything illegal yourself, you may have the contact information of someone who is on a watchlist or has been convicted of a crime. For example, China is looking into developing a social credit rating system, any association an individual has to persons who the government consider less reputable could have real impacts on their credit rating.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#62

Post by ttflee »

My fear of future is way above this.

Apple and other mobile OS all incorporated so called Mobile Device Management features into their cores. With one or a few payloads pushed to your device, it could do fairly lot from install an app remotely to wipe it out (like find-my-iPhone).

I wonder what would be the case if China gov't asks. It could just be a small step forward in the whole Salami tactics.

EDIT:

Of course, for now, it requires enrollment of the device to a legitimate MDM server, but what will happen tomorrow?

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Mi...

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#63

Post by techrede »

abalone wrote: post #36
techrede wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, many users in China can use other services, but it seems to be a no win situation for most people. Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud than they would using any other China-based service. Unfortunately that…

> At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud You can say better than that. iCloud is more secure than your average service (especially in China). It end to end encrypts the most sensitive data (keychain) for example, and iMessage has managed to stay alive so far.

Yes, perhaps that's true but it doesn't mean that Apple is completely in the clear on this issue. A much more detailed account of iCloud security can be found on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16449326

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#64

Post by ballenf »

ztjio wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To Apple's non -credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with). I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's n…

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

Given that Apple recently removed the ability to buy apps from iTunes, I think the writings's on the wall for the ability to locally backup iOS devices. Which is a huge shame.

My guess is they're waiting for more complete coverage in terms of iCloud functionality and maybe security. But Apple has been known to pull the plug on "pro" functionality like this and/or remove functionality before the replacement was quite ready yet.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#66

Post by r00fus »

ballenf wrote: post #64
ztjio wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

Given that Apple recently removed the ability to buy apps from iTunes, I think the writings's on the wall for the ability to locally backup iOS devices. Which is a huge shame. My guess is they're waiting for more complete coverage in terms of iCloud functionality and maybe security. But Apple has been known to pull the plug on "pro" functionality like this and/or remove functionality before the replacement was quite…

What was the use case for buying apps on iTunes as opposed to any one of your iOS devices?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#67

Post by tonylinn80 »

elefanten wrote: post #46
supergirl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China. Services hosted outside the US by companies with presence in the US fall under Patriot Act which means US can spy on them any time without warrant, but ianal. Even if the company has no presence in the US, there are only a handful of countries that would not bend over to hand data to US. That's wh…

Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. In China, you have no guarantees and no recourse. Torture, forced confession and retaliation against your family are all on the table. That's why no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones.

Why do Assange and Snowden needs to hide then? Of course US don't need to do anything sketchy, they make them illegal and lawfully send them to jail

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#68

Post by tonylinn80 »

elefanten wrote: post #46
supergirl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China. Services hosted outside the US by companies with presence in the US fall under Patriot Act which means US can spy on them any time without warrant, but ianal. Even if the company has no presence in the US, there are only a handful of countries that would not bend over to hand data to US. That's wh…

Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. In China, you have no guarantees and no recourse. Torture, forced confession and retaliation against your family are all on the table. That's why no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones.

"no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones"? You have only heard one sided stories from western media so far.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#69

Post by sfifs »

rqs wrote: post #53
echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

> I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns" Does this mean anything? You also breathe polluted air like "most people", do you want new fresh air then? The reason of "__INSERT ACTION HERE__ won't practically have any impact on 'privacy' or 'human rights concerns'" is becaus…

Different cultures value things differently. In many societies east of Europe, things typically considered private in the west (work, salary, family, political affiliation/opinions etc., friends circle etc.) would be commonly accepted social knowledge.

So what you consider "Important" may not be as important to them when you consider they may already expect society knows these things.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#70

Post by rsync »

ztjio wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To Apple's non -credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with). I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's n…

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

"So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes"

Is that how iDevices work ? You do data backup with your mp3 player ?

Is there really no Finder equivalent on an iphone ?

Genuinely curious ...

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