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The Poison We Pick

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Re: The Poison We Pick

#191

Post by evunveot »

lighttower wrote: post #173
evunveot wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be the one to bring up Jordan Peterson, I guess. To attempt to synthesize his views: 1. Even if you start from a position of complete nihilism, you can recognize that pain (both physical and psychological) is real and that you don't like it. 2. You can observe that people who perceive their life as meaningful are more likely to be capable of persevering in the face of extreme pain and suffering. So in a sense me…

Are you being downvoted only because you mentioned Peterson? What you are writing here, and attributing to Peterson, was first described in depth by Viktor Frankl in Man's Search for Meaning[0]. In that book he describes how prisoners in Nazi concentration camps who didn't find meaning to their suffering would quickly die by illness or suicide while those that ascribed meaning to their suffering (such as staying aliv…

It's quite possible that one of the times I listened to Peterson talking about this subject he cited Viktor Frankl but I didn't recognize the name. I looked around and Peterson evidently incorporated Frankl into his course on personality at the University of Toronto (I don't usually watch these lectures because I'm somewhat allergic to college):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zooE5GE81TU

Re: The Poison We Pick

#192

Post by smogcutter »

microcolonel wrote: post #179
smogcutter wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe! Or maybe it creates an enormous, permanent underclass living hand to mouth on what are effectively ration cards, lacking even the power to deny the machine their labor. Then, is that actually as bad as it sounds? A walk around LA's skid row is a strong case it's not. For me, it's eyebrow raising that a lot of the momentum behind UBI seems (anecdotally) to come from people who don't expect to have to rely on it…

There's no such thing as post-scarcity. Scarcity is imposed by physics, not a lack of technology. What changes is our expectations, beyond basic survival. Most people living below the federal poverty line have one or more televisions with active cable, a smartphone, and air conditioning; nearly all of them, in the high 99.x percents, have refrigerators, which implies that nearly all of them are housed as well, and ef…

Yes, we're nowhere close to "post-scarcity" in the Star Trek or Iain Banks sense. But proximity is also a function of technology, and in a hypothetical world where human labor is mostly obsolete (STEM included), it approaches zero.

It's fair (and I think correct) to not expect the world to go so far in that direction any time soon enough to be relevant, but many do. Scratch a UBI supporter and you'll often find a big believer in AI.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#193

Post by DoubleCribble »

gph wrote: post #184
jes5199 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malthus was wrong: access to birth control correlates with wealth

Malthus was temporarily wrong at best. You are taking an extremely narrow slice of human history and extrapolating the future from it. Without a controlling global enforcement of birth control (none currently exists and undoubtedly won't any time soon), then those who don't use birth control (whether driven through cultural or biological means) will have more fecundity and quickly outbreed and replace those that do.…

Not if the LDS Church has anything to say about it. I can't speak to the fecundity of the modern Nigerian family, but I'd wager the average American Catholic family is smaller than the average American LDS family , and by significant margin. Anecdotally, a former colleague (an LDS member) recently welcomed his 11th child. Apparently, a family with 11 kids was neither extreme nor unusual in his ward.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#194

Post by gph »

DoubleCribble wrote: post #193
gph wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malthus was temporarily wrong at best. You are taking an extremely narrow slice of human history and extrapolating the future from it. Without a controlling global enforcement of birth control (none currently exists and undoubtedly won't any time soon), then those who don't use birth control (whether driven through cultural or biological means) will have more fecundity and quickly outbreed and replace those that do.…

Not if the LDS Church has anything to say about it. I can't speak to the fecundity of the modern Nigerian family, but I'd wager the average American Catholic family is smaller than the average American LDS family , and by significant margin. Anecdotally, a former colleague (an LDS member) recently welcomed his 11th child. Apparently, a family with 11 kids was neither extreme nor unusual in his ward.

Hah, yea I was just going with Catholics since they've been burned into the collective conscious as anti-birth control. Seems most of them don't actually listen to the Pope much these days.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#195

Post by jacobolus »

danieltillett wrote: post #187
majormajor wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely seems like a mix. I've been addicted (to the point of losing thousands and thousands) to gambling in the past - looking for a way out, something to change things financially - but alcohol or narcotic drugs did nothing for me. But I knew other people in the same situation whose relief came - more destructively, more difficult to recover from - from the drugs.

I have to say I find addiction to gambling quite fascinating as I get absolutely no pleasure from gambling. The thinking a gambler must have is so different to my thinking that it is impossible for me to imagine what they are thinking. My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.

The Las Vegas airport is one of the most depressing places in the world.

A few years ago I looked on as a mother in a zombie trance dumped a bucket of quarters into a slot machine one by one while her young child sobbed and tried to drag her away to no response. They were presumably waiting to get on a plane home after a weekend of losing bigger money gambling.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#196

Post by matwood »

danieltillett wrote: post #187
majormajor wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely seems like a mix. I've been addicted (to the point of losing thousands and thousands) to gambling in the past - looking for a way out, something to change things financially - but alcohol or narcotic drugs did nothing for me. But I knew other people in the same situation whose relief came - more destructively, more difficult to recover from - from the drugs.

I have to say I find addiction to gambling quite fascinating as I get absolutely no pleasure from gambling. The thinking a gambler must have is so different to my thinking that it is impossible for me to imagine what they are thinking. My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.

> My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.

As someone who isn't addicted to gambling, but enjoys partaking every once in awhile, it depends. Day time casino slots is absolutely depressing, along with things like casino boats.

With that said, I have had some amazingly fun times playing cheap craps with a table full of energetic people. Most of the table wins and looses together and it can be a good time.

I used to also play a lot of poker, but that was less about gambling and more about being extremely competitive.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#197

Post by mikevp »

Personally, I just don't "get" the high of opiods. My experience has been entirely medical -- morphine after surgery, and the usual vicodin/percocet/whatever pills after injury or tooth extraction.

Different people react to them differently. Some people, like me, they make physical pain recede, but nothing else. Some people, they make feel groggy or sick, and they don't like them. (My grandmother was like this -- she disliked the grogginess from the Brompton's Mixture more than she disliked the pain of her terminal cancer. She only took it once or twice.)

And some people, one dose and it's "Where have you BEEN all my life!!!!"

An interesting line of research might be -- why the difference in reaction to opiods? Why do some people get the "WOW! I LIKE that!!" reaction, while others don't?

Re: The Poison We Pick

#198

Post by [deleted] »

mikevp wrote: post #197

Personally, I just don't "get" the high of opiods. My experience has been entirely medical -- morphine after surgery, and the usual vicodin/percocet/whatever pills after injury or tooth extraction. Different people react to them differently. Some people, like me, they make physical pain recede, but nothing else. Some people, they make feel groggy or sick, and they don't like them. (My grandmother was like this -- she…

[deleted]

Re: The Poison We Pick

#199

Post by loorinm »

majormajor wrote: post #154
DenisM wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The third option is protests of various forms. The most polite one is throwing a brick trough the window of society by electing some loose-cannon politician. The brick went obviously unheeded, and I’m worried of what will follow. Capitalism has succeeded in its primary goal - amassing resources for capital-intensive projects. We’re done, we have so much capital companies sits on hundreds of billions of dollars. Somet…

A loose cannon that wasn't, at heart, as corrupt and greedy a capitalist as anyone might be more effective. But actually, I think the Trump loose cannon wasn't sent because of anger against capitalism, but rather misplaced anger against things like immigration, diversity, and a move away from traditional religious views. Capitalism is seen as A-OK, it's just that The Liberals have rigged the system against Good Hones…

No, Capitalism itself is rigged against good honest people.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#200

Post by thisiszilff »

meuk wrote: post #59
dkural wrote: post #46

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug…

It's mostly a matter of perception, but I agree wholeheartedly. While the US is a beautiful, rich, and diverse country, it is hardly developed in many aspects. The education and healthcare is problematic and class-based, and many policies are near-sighted. There is an unhealthy obsession with shallow entertainment. Public opinion matters more than truth. There's no justice if you're not a ultra-rich, companies will j…

A part of it is definitely perception. If this country is so great, why does it have so many problems?

As to what distinguishes the US from European countries is probably the lack of continuity and history. One doesn't really feel like an "American" as one might feel "Spanish" or "French." An unfortunate consequence of this lack of unity is that democracy becomes very, very messy, and what might have unified the US--a common set of values, hopes, ideals, etc.--is being chipped away at. On the flip side US culture promotes individualism which sometimes leads people away from unity.

With respect to the issue at hand, there's a great quote by David Foster Wallace: “This is so American, man: either make something your god and cosmos and then worship it, or else kill it.” There's a bizarre zeal that's valued in US life and culture (think startup culture) that's great if you find that something to "worship," but if not you're left with this overzealous impulse to do something, something great, something worthy of your time, but you don't have anywhere to direct that energy. It becomes destructive. Europeans have a steadier pace of life that recognizes that 90% of the people aren't going to becomes famous, have amazing carers, be important figures, and that instead of that they can have good, stable, happy lives. In the US, that just doesn't cut it.

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