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The Poison We Pick

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Re: The Poison We Pick

#181

Post by joslin01 »

sgentle wrote: post #120

Rather than place the blame on a lack of structure, community or spirituality, I see this as just a natural consequence of a system optimised at every turn for economic output. I've heard a lot about a singularity doomsday scenario where a paperclip-maximising AI realises people are much less useful as paperclip constructors than they are as paperclip ingredients. Surely it can't be so hard to see that the productivi…

Well thought out. I have a similar disposition, which highlights the culture surrounding our smart-phones -- largely social networks such as Instagram & Snapchat. In one mode, they help people stay connected, and yet in another mode, they create create an ego-obsession (both of oneself and of others). This is the first part in feeling separated, alienated, or just generally inferior in a quasi social-network.

The second part is the ease of getting pleasure on demand. At any part of the day, most are free to look at the internet of anything ranging from funny pictures to pornographic pictures. They can turn on netflix, play video games, and do just about anything from the convenience of their smart phones. You can see this on just about any subway; a room full of people each engulfed in their own personal world driving their pleasure centers.

When you bring these two together (feelings of inferiority / detachment to those around you AND pleasure on demand), you get a person whose general approach to life is like that of a drug addict. They crave simple pleasures and justify it because they feel like shit. They also feel as if they're alone in this world, and so who cares? Of course this is all subconscious and part of a habitual perspective, but this is the kind of world we're growing up in America. Pharmaceuticals have significant power here and want to convince you they can fix you with a pill. Maybe they can. But what I'm trying to highlight is that we now have a mentality of always looking around for a "fix". I find very few people who can last a whole subway train just looking at the window pondering or who can strike up a conversation with a stranger for the hell of it. We're becoming way too engulfed in a pseudo personal world, and smart-phones are driving it.

No, I'm not trying to start a crusade against smart phones or even taking any stance at all. This is just how I see the problem currently. I want to believe technology can help fight it by bringing more people together for social events, but where's the advertising money in that? And who cares if you're not profiting? This pursuit of profits above all else has created a very shallow society and I would argue the drug epidemic is a reflection of it.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#182

Post by [deleted] »

guntars wrote: post #141
sgentle wrote: post #120

Rather than place the blame on a lack of structure, community or spirituality, I see this as just a natural consequence of a system optimised at every turn for economic output. I've heard a lot about a singularity doomsday scenario where a paperclip-maximising AI realises people are much less useful as paperclip constructors than they are as paperclip ingredients. Surely it can't be so hard to see that the productivi…

I like the comparison of the economy with an optimizing AI, but the value function isn't max(paperclips), but whatever people will pay for. So it's not really the fault of the AI that people have fucked up priorities - the AI itself is value neutral. If you can get a large enough group to say: "Enough, the AI doesn't represent our values, let's change it!", it will already have happened because the same people will h…

[deleted]

Re: The Poison We Pick

#183

Post by byproxy »

sgentle wrote: post #120

Rather than place the blame on a lack of structure, community or spirituality, I see this as just a natural consequence of a system optimised at every turn for economic output. I've heard a lot about a singularity doomsday scenario where a paperclip-maximising AI realises people are much less useful as paperclip constructors than they are as paperclip ingredients. Surely it can't be so hard to see that the productivi…

You may want to give "The Religion of the Future" by Roberto Mangabeira Unger a read. I'm nearly through with it, myself, and he lays forth many of the same thoughts present in this post while attempting to describe a new spirituality.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#184

Post by gph »

jes5199 wrote: post #172
gph wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The global economy already produces enough for every man, woman and child. But does it produce enough for every man, woman and child in a sustainable manner, and will it be able to keep up with the Malthusian population growth that would continue unabated if every person on earth was perpetually guaranteed to get "enough"? The answer to both of those is no. While there is certainly a lot of inefficient busy work amo…

Malthus was wrong: access to birth control correlates with wealth

Malthus was temporarily wrong at best. You are taking an extremely narrow slice of human history and extrapolating the future from it. Without a controlling global enforcement of birth control (none currently exists and undoubtedly won't any time soon), then those who don't use birth control (whether driven through cultural or biological means) will have more fecundity and quickly outbreed and replace those that do. And if everyone is guaranteed equal sustenance and resources it will very quickly devolve into a Malthusian situation.

tl;dr Give everyone and their offspring guaranteed sustenance and the Catholics and Nigerians will take over in a couple generation. Nothing about the OPs post said give everyone enough wealth and force birth control so that they only reproduce at a replacement rate.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#185

Post by refurb »

iamcasen wrote: post #134
naeemtee wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore has one of the world's highest income inequalities and faces virtually none of those problems. Distilling it down to "income inequality" is reductionist, political scapegoating.

Singapore is also an extremely authoritarian state. Possession of drugs can get you the death penalty, or state sanctioned torture and beatings. Kinda apples to oranges when you compare to the US.

You can get decades in prison in the US for small-time drug dealing. What has that accomplished in terms of reducing the drug problem?

Re: The Poison We Pick

#186

Post by refurb »

lewis500 wrote: post #90

This whole piece is a good example of how fine writing can hoodwink you. Garbage analysis from start to finish. "Unlike in Europe, where cities and towns existed long before industrialization, much of America’s heartland has no remaining preindustrial history, given the destruction of Native American societies. The gutting of that industrial backbone — especially as globalization intensified in a country where market…

I took the same thing away. Basically taking the preconceived notion that capitalism is bad and using poetic writing to tie every social ill back to it.

I hope that people don't look to this article as a serious review of history.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#187

Post by danieltillett »

majormajor wrote: post #155
noahdesu wrote: post #48

The first thing I did when I opened this article was search for "rat", and was happy to see it there. From the comments I saw I had a hunch it might be: I recently finished a really powerful chapter in the book "Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs" which describes an experiment involving rats that ostensibly shows that addiction isn't about the chemical, but rather it's about the environme…

It definitely seems like a mix. I've been addicted (to the point of losing thousands and thousands) to gambling in the past - looking for a way out, something to change things financially - but alcohol or narcotic drugs did nothing for me. But I knew other people in the same situation whose relief came - more destructively, more difficult to recover from - from the drugs.

I have to say I find addiction to gambling quite fascinating as I get absolutely no pleasure from gambling. The thinking a gambler must have is so different to my thinking that it is impossible for me to imagine what they are thinking.

My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#188

Post by JudasGoat »

As a Heroin addict that hasn't used in over 5 years, I believe the emptiness of Materialism was as instrumental in my addiction as the richness of spirituality has been in my recovery.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#189

Post by danieltillett »

twentythree wrote: post #125
sgentle wrote: post #120

Rather than place the blame on a lack of structure, community or spirituality, I see this as just a natural consequence of a system optimised at every turn for economic output. I've heard a lot about a singularity doomsday scenario where a paperclip-maximising AI realises people are much less useful as paperclip constructors than they are as paperclip ingredients. Surely it can't be so hard to see that the productivi…

I love the concept of "a system where people have value independent of their productivity." I worry that the increasing focus on a meritocracy (especially in tech) ignores the fact that it devalues anyone who for whatever reason -- lack of education, lack of natural ability, or just lack of motivation -- doesn't contribute enough to be considered important. It's probably an improvement on the system we had before, wh…

The basic problem is that meritocracy beats every other political system. The reason meritocracy took over is not because it is morally better, but because non-meritocatic societies fell by the wayside under the boot of meritocracy.

Hopefully in the post-scarcity society coming we can come up with a better approach not focused on people’s productivity.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#190

Post by PuffinBlue »

paganel wrote: post #87
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #78

> We consume 99 percent of the world’s hydrocodone and 81 percent of its oxycodone. this is quite a mouthful and horrid if true. would like to see some sources for this claim

Don't have any sources available, but as an European it's strange how prevalent opioids are in the States for what are seen as "regular" medical interventions. I remember having a discussion with a US redditor, telling him/her that even though I had 3 or 4 teeth extracted during the last 10 or so years I've never been prescribed opioids (the extractions were done by different doctors, in different clinics), I've alwa…

The NYT actually ran another story on exactly this topic - difference in European/US approach to pain management, but more from the patients perspective, it's really good reading too:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-ge...

Title was: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

It made the top spot on HackerNews too:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16252372

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