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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#291

Post by randomdata »

emodendroket wrote: post #253
randomdata wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is referring to measuring you in your time after college to see how what you gained from the experience has actually shaped your life, and if it matches what was expected from the onset. But given that you don't have a perfect clone that is in every way equal except for having gone to college, it is understandably difficult to measure. It seems, at best, we have people trying to compare the worlds best prodigies w…

The populations of both people who go to college and those who do not are so large that I feel like we could likely control for effects (at least extreme ones like you're talking about) and make useful judgments.

While I only pointed to the extremes, even across the general population the problem with trying to compare is that college is setup to filter those who are less able. Be that less able to pay, less able to withstand the academic rigour, less able to take risk, less able to integrate in certain social settings, etc. As a result, only the top (for some definition of top) people are able to enter and finish their academic programs.

It's kind of like looking at the Olympics to see how it has shaped the athletic ability of the athletes compared to the ability of the population who have never been to the Olympics. You are bound to find outliers[1], but observing that Olympic athletes are usually stronger athletes might leave you to believe that going to the Olympics makes one a significantly better athlete. However, in reality, those same people would still be among the best athletes even if they never went anywhere near the Olympics.

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/winter-olympics/...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#292

Post by emodendroket »

randomdata wrote: post #291
emodendroket wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The populations of both people who go to college and those who do not are so large that I feel like we could likely control for effects (at least extreme ones like you're talking about) and make useful judgments.

While I only pointed to the extremes, even across the general population the problem with trying to compare is that college is setup to filter those who are less able. Be that less able to pay, less able to withstand the academic rigour, less able to take risk, less able to integrate in certain social settings, etc. As a result, only the top (for some definition of top) people are able to enter and finish their acade…

Olympic athletes are a tiny population and there is no program, for instance, to let mediocre athletes in, while there are programs to let economically disadvantaged students into college. I think it should be quite possible to control for those effects.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#293

Post by 8bitsrule »

I'm seeing the old familiar refrain that going to college is about job training. There are many reasons to go to college, that's just one of them. There are many reasons apart from the mind-sharpening and focussing skills learned in classrooms.

Getting to know people unlike those you grew up with is one. Socializing. Networking. Exposure to many points of view. Exposure to history, culture, ideas. And on and on. Exposure to kinds of work that you would otherwise never know existed.

Work is what you do so you -can- live. Life is what you do outside of work. In college you can learn about ALL of your opportunities. People who just go to college to close-mindedly garner a skillset they think they need are cheating themselves out of the big picture.

Noone can tell you what you -really- want to do. You have to figure that out yourself. Else you're just better-trained to do something else. Tragic.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#294

Post by randomdata »

emodendroket wrote: post #292
randomdata wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I only pointed to the extremes, even across the general population the problem with trying to compare is that college is setup to filter those who are less able. Be that less able to pay, less able to withstand the academic rigour, less able to take risk, less able to integrate in certain social settings, etc. As a result, only the top (for some definition of top) people are able to enter and finish their acade…

Olympic athletes are a tiny population and there is no program, for instance, to let mediocre athletes in, while there are programs to let economically disadvantaged students into college. I think it should be quite possible to control for those effects.

> there are programs to let economically disadvantaged students into college.

But, to stick with the comparison, many countries have programs to help out athletes who are economically disadvantaged as well to allow them to make it to the Olympics, assuming they already have demonstrated sufficient athletic ability to justify the funding. Just as sufficient academic ability is required for any college subsidy I have ever come across.

Although I'm not sure ability to pay ends at economic disadvantage. I don't feel that I can pay for college at this point in my life, with many preexisting financial commitments that need to come first, and I have a developer's salary. Nobody is going to pay my way. Not being poor doesn't mean money is readily available for such luxuries. There is a very real opportunity cost there.

What about academically disadvantaged students? Are there any studies to show how people who couldn't possibly graduate from college if they tried to the best of their ability fair by being given access to the entire course load and awarded a degree even with their technical failure? That would be very interesting and a way to start to control the variables.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#295

Post by rmah »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #248
evoloution wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; everything else that anyone tells you may not serve you well. Although throwaway0255 is making an argument about whether you could achieve better education by yourself vs. an organized university curriculum, you should never overlook the effect that a degree from a prestigious University can have. In most fields companies hire people from the highest ranked Universities, w…

This, finish and go to the best Uni you can; There was an interesting program on BBC Radio last year that questioned this, they had an example of a student that had excelled during school and went on to the top university for her subject where she found herself in the middle of the pack. This ended any career opportunities in that subject for her. She knew people who took the same subject at lower tier universities,…

I bet they had to search long and hard to find such an example. For the simple fact is that after your first job (and usually not even then), no one cares about your university grades. All they see is what school attended and what you majored in. And after a decade or two, people stop really caring about your major as well. The "brand" of the university lasts a lifetime.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#296

Post by jonathankoren »

tropo wrote: post #287
jonathankoren wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million upvotes if I could. I also had a similar experience. (53 people in my HS graduating class, with a high school population of approximately 200.) While I have no reason to believe that the school wasn't trying their best, the fact is that the school just didn't have the same academic opportunities as other schools. My parents made it clear that I was going to go to college, because neither of them did. They g…

It shouldn't surprise you that you "find them still working as a cashier at Walmart". This isn't even a rural/urban issue. Urban environments are full of people who work retail and never move out of the city. It's the same thing! You'll find plenty of self-destructive culture in our urban environments. If anything, the retail workers are doing better than typical. They at least legally earn a living, which is respect…

It’s a difference in kind. Its not that some stayed, it’s that so very few left, especially when it was obvious 25 years ago that there was no economic base. Even moving 1 hour away to a major city was too much for them.

With the exception of one, even the ones I thought for sure would move didn’t. That’s what makes me shake my head. I just took it for granted their parents gave them a similar talk about having to move away like my mom gave me.

Guess not.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#297

Post by TheCoelacanth »

leetcrew wrote: post #143
throwaway0255 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

the idea that literally everyone should go / would benefit from going to college is definitely wrong and harmful, but there are some special things about college for those who take advantage. college is probably the only time in your life that an entire team of domain experts will be obligated to take time out of their day to meet with you and answer your questions, however silly or low-level they may be. as a profes…

A lot of the value of college comes from signalling rather than what you actually learn in college. The problem is that, at least on an individual basis, signalling is economically rational, so it is going to be very hard to get people to stop doing it.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#298

Post by TheCoelacanth »

forapurpose wrote: post #89
lugg wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that people from rural areas or just people in rural areas? Because less people in higher education in rural areas shouldn't suprise anyone. People generally move or commute to cities for higher education and that isn't really news. So depending what those numbers really mean could be significant.

> People generally move or commute to cities for higher education I'm not sure that's true. My impression is that most universities are in small towns. In the U.S., that describes many large state universities. I would guess that the cost of land in cities is a big reason. EDIT: With many large universities enrolling tens of thousands of students, plus employing faculty and staff and supporting all the third parties…

There are a lot of towns in the US that basically exist just to support a university. However, there are also tons of universities in large cities too. Google "universities in _" for almost any big city and you will get a list that goes on for multiple screens. Many of them are tiny, but usually at least a few will be large universities.

E.g. New York City has 110 universities and colleges with roughly 600k students[1]. Boston has 35 with 150k students[2]. DC has 20 with about 85k students[3]. Pittsburgh has over 150k students[4], etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_New_York_City

[2] http://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/3488e768-1dd4-4446-...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universit....

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universit...

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#299

Post by creep »

hrktb wrote: post #188
throwaway0255 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

> Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. How convenient for the sales pitch is this. The cost of college forces some people to also argument for better revenue opportunities and better fit for future jobs, because otherwise bur…

>In countries where university are cheaper nobody bats an eye at someone going through the cycles just for the sake of it, purely to learn interesting things.

Tuition is pretty cheap in Canada-- definitely as compared to the States. I'm actually at university to do just that. I'm in a math degree while I get my certs. I'm getting a minor in Latin, because learning the language is literally on my bucket list. I'm having a pretty good time, I'd say.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#300

Post by wemdyjreichert »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

It's the old complaint about the schoolchild and arithmetic, "When am I actually going to use this?". Most people never need to do long-division by hand... even those who work in math-related professions use calculators.

Don't teach what people don't need to learn. There are better places for everyone to expend their time, energy, and money.

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