The Poison We Pick • Hacker News Board

Re: The Poison We Pick

#51

Post by kldavis4 » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

dmreedy wrote: post #23

I've been talking with my brother a lot about this recently, especially as a function of the overall decrease of 'meaning' in the world. I think it goes back even further, to the advent of postmodernism in the throes of World War I. They were the first lost generation, but I don't think they were the last. The death of modernism and the accompanying assault on the bastions of objective meaning (as discussed in the ar…

Your comment about the rabid consumption of fiction these days hits home for me personally. In this "golden age" of television, with more high quality entertainment than anyone can possibly consume, I've begun to feel that my media consumption is more compulsive escapism than casual enjoyment.

I find Pitirim Sorokin's classification of societies as either ideational (spiritual) or sensate (materialistic) helpful in understanding where we are. I strongly believe the evidence points to our modern civilization being in the late stages of sensate decline. Science and technology has brought enormous benefits to the world but has utterly devastated the individual dignity of man, leaving only meaningless pleasures to provide any motivation for living. I think we will soon (100 years?) see a cultural shift back towards immaterial values and purposes higher than the satisfaction of our sensory desires. The question in my mind is whether that shift happens before or after our current civilization destroys itself.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#52

Post by odMFJFHBvn2zyR2 » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #14

mmjaa wrote: post #5

The way to treat the opioid crisis is that it is a battlefield, and America is losing. Drugs have long been seen as a way of usurping the will of ones' enemies; it is no different now. America has been under pharmacological attack for decades; its people are too addicted to see that this is by design. Drugs have weakened America, and that is by design of its enemies.

Which enemies are we talking about here? Are they domestic or foreign? What is their goal? I see where you're going with this argument, there are certainly historical precedents, but you haven't said enough to make it plausible.

From the article, "Fentanyl comes from labs in China".

Also:

The Opium Wars still shape China’s view of the West

https://www.economist.com/news/christmas-specials/21732706-b...

Re: The Poison We Pick

#53

Post by dkural » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #47

dkural wrote: post #46

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug…

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

If black people don't count, sure.

I would argue that the US has not been a full democracy until Civil Rights.

Jim Crow laws were in effect until 1965. Also, black people could not exercise their vote, were not allowed to attend university, eat in the same restaurants, or even sit on the same section of the bus. As far as black people were concerned, the US was not a democracy.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#54

Post by chrisgd » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:48 PM UTC

I think almost all problems we discuss every day: political divide, millennial job prospects, student loan debt, drug crises can be traced to wealth inequality. At it's core, all these problems evolve from unfettered capitalistic pursuits. The middle man taking their cut of student loans and having no means to resolve that debt through bakruptcy. No growth jobs that offer no safety net. For profit schools, prisons and healthcare allowing those at the top to accumulate wealth by depriving more people of what was once considered a community benefit. We yell that the other side has it wrong while owners of gun manufacturers escape any civil liability and providers of medicare admin routinely overbill, then pay fines less than the wealth accumulated. Opiates provide an opportunity to escape what seems unescapable. I am not sure the answer but the framing is continually wrong.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#55

Post by dkural » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:48 PM UTC

dkural wrote: post #53

tomp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

If black people don't count, sure. I would argue that the US has not been a full democracy until Civil Rights. Jim Crow laws were in effect until 1965. Also, black people could not exercise their vote, were not allowed to attend university, eat in the same restaurants, or even sit on the same section of the bus. As far as black people were concerned, the US was not a democracy.

Here's an article describing some of this: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/07/13/presumption-of-gu...

Re: The Poison We Pick

#56

Post by smackay » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #47

dkural wrote: post #46

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug…

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

I think the good people of Iceland might disagree with that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing

Re: The Poison We Pick

#57

Post by mattnewton » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #44

Arnt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you intend to say that the Scandinavian countries' deliberate policies against social fragmentation since about 1950 haven't had any effect? Or that they wouldn't have any effect elsewhere? Or that they don't exist?

Scandinavian countries don't have social fragmentation on the scale of the US because they are not the US. Not nearly as diverse, or large. They have much more history and common ancestry and culture and community. There is very little of use that can be gained from comparing Scandinavian countries to the US.

It’s not clear to me that’s true. What is clear is that I don’t know any US governments willing to test it, because they think they already know what addiction is.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#58

Post by ArcticUnicorn » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

"It’s been several decades since Daniel Bell wrote The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism, but his insights have proven prescient. Ever-more-powerful market forces actually undermine the foundations of social stability, wreaking havoc on tradition, religion, and robust civil associations, destroying what conservatives value the most. They create a less human world. They make us less happy. They generate pain."

This articulates the feelings/observations I've been mulling over recently. Also the idea of opiate abusers being a self-selecting group of the "failed" areas of society was something I hadn't thoroughly considered. Very interesting. If opiates caused a more distinct rise in violet crime, would public policy be forced to respond similar to the other drug epidemics? (Though I might argue that those epidemics were just replaced with this one, yielding quieter and more easily ignored victims.)

Re: The Poison We Pick

#59

Post by meuk » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:53 PM UTC

dkural wrote: post #46

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug…

It's mostly a matter of perception, but I agree wholeheartedly. While the US is a beautiful, rich, and diverse country, it is hardly developed in many aspects.

The education and healthcare is problematic and class-based, and many policies are near-sighted. There is an unhealthy obsession with shallow entertainment. Public opinion matters more than truth. There's no justice if you're not a ultra-rich, companies will just go to court until you're broke.

There are only two important political parties - both seem to have some moral issues. In general, Americans don't live very sustainable (gasoline, cars, and tech is really cheap, so why bother?). There is also a weird obsession with race - it's for some reason very common to divide people in races (apparently, you're either black, white, hispanic, or asian and there is nothing in between).

While most of the Americans I met work extremely hard and are a joy to be around, I also found them to be quite nationalistic and oblivious to criticism on the USA. Of course, this whole rant is a huge generalization :)

Re: The Poison We Pick

#60

Post by Retric » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

dkural wrote: post #53

tomp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

If black people don't count, sure. I would argue that the US has not been a full democracy until Civil Rights. Jim Crow laws were in effect until 1965. Also, black people could not exercise their vote, were not allowed to attend university, eat in the same restaurants, or even sit on the same section of the bus. As far as black people were concerned, the US was not a democracy.

Even then 4 million Americans don't get a vote because they don't live in states. Residents of DC, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa all get Taxes without representation.

Thus, America is still not an actual Democracy.