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The Poison We Pick

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Re: The Poison We Pick

#41

Post by meri_dian »

pwaivers wrote: post #36

> "And so we wait to see what amount of death will be tolerable in America as the price of retaining prohibition. Is it 100,000 deaths a year? More? At what point does a medical emergency actually provoke a government response that takes mass death seriously? Imagine a terror attack that killed over 40,000 people. Imagine a new virus that threatened to kill 52,000 Americans this year. Wouldn’t any government make it…

It's actually a foolish quote. What can the government do in the face of tens of thousands of people essentially choosing to kill themselves? It could jail them, but our culture is moving towards one where doing that to drug users is frowned upon. So what option does it have?

Putting the onus on the government to solve this problem goes against the very essence of this piece. If social fragmentation is truly the cause of the opioid crisis, then government intervention will by like putting a mud wall in front of a raging river.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#42

Post by Arnt »

meri_dian wrote: post #41
pwaivers wrote: post #36

> "And so we wait to see what amount of death will be tolerable in America as the price of retaining prohibition. Is it 100,000 deaths a year? More? At what point does a medical emergency actually provoke a government response that takes mass death seriously? Imagine a terror attack that killed over 40,000 people. Imagine a new virus that threatened to kill 52,000 Americans this year. Wouldn’t any government make it…

It's actually a foolish quote. What can the government do in the face of tens of thousands of people essentially choosing to kill themselves? It could jail them, but our culture is moving towards one where doing that to drug users is frowned upon. So what option does it have? Putting the onus on the government to solve this problem goes against the very essence of this piece. If social fragmentation is truly the caus…

Do you intend to say that the Scandinavian countries' deliberate policies against social fragmentation since about 1950 haven't had any effect? Or that they wouldn't have any effect elsewhere? Or that they don't exist?

Re: The Poison We Pick

#43

Post by GuiA »

meri_dian wrote: post #41
pwaivers wrote: post #36

> "And so we wait to see what amount of death will be tolerable in America as the price of retaining prohibition. Is it 100,000 deaths a year? More? At what point does a medical emergency actually provoke a government response that takes mass death seriously? Imagine a terror attack that killed over 40,000 people. Imagine a new virus that threatened to kill 52,000 Americans this year. Wouldn’t any government make it…

It's actually a foolish quote. What can the government do in the face of tens of thousands of people essentially choosing to kill themselves? It could jail them, but our culture is moving towards one where doing that to drug users is frowned upon. So what option does it have? Putting the onus on the government to solve this problem goes against the very essence of this piece. If social fragmentation is truly the caus…

Except the article mentions successful approaches to reducing the problem other governments have used, so I don’t know, maybe read the article?

One of the few proven ways to reduce overdose deaths is to establish supervised injection sites that eventually wean users off the hard stuff while steering them into counseling, safe housing, and job training. After the first injection site in North America opened in Vancouver, deaths from heroin overdoses plunged by 35 percent. In Switzerland, where such sites operate nationwide, overdose deaths have been cut in half. By treating the addicted as human beings with dignity rather than as losers and criminals who have ostracized themselves, these programs have coaxed many away from the cliff face of extinction toward a more productive life.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#44

Post by meri_dian »

Arnt wrote: post #42
meri_dian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually a foolish quote. What can the government do in the face of tens of thousands of people essentially choosing to kill themselves? It could jail them, but our culture is moving towards one where doing that to drug users is frowned upon. So what option does it have? Putting the onus on the government to solve this problem goes against the very essence of this piece. If social fragmentation is truly the caus…

Do you intend to say that the Scandinavian countries' deliberate policies against social fragmentation since about 1950 haven't had any effect? Or that they wouldn't have any effect elsewhere? Or that they don't exist?

Scandinavian countries don't have social fragmentation on the scale of the US because they are not the US. Not nearly as diverse, or large. They have much more history and common ancestry and culture and community. There is very little of use that can be gained from comparing Scandinavian countries to the US.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#45

Post by meri_dian »

GuiA wrote: post #43
meri_dian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually a foolish quote. What can the government do in the face of tens of thousands of people essentially choosing to kill themselves? It could jail them, but our culture is moving towards one where doing that to drug users is frowned upon. So what option does it have? Putting the onus on the government to solve this problem goes against the very essence of this piece. If social fragmentation is truly the caus…

Except the article mentions successful approaches to reducing the problem other governments have used, so I don’t know, maybe read the article? One of the few proven ways to reduce overdose deaths is to establish supervised injection sites that eventually wean users off the hard stuff while steering them into counseling, safe housing, and job training. After the first injection site in North America opened in Vancouv…

Overdose deaths are cut in half because they have access to clean drugs. Show me statistics that they have actually kicked the habit.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#46

Post by dkural »

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug addiction accompanied with treatment, higher gender and social equality, and more importantly, higher social mobility (since access to education and healthcare is more equal); affordable and high quality public transportation, and walkable cities. Property tax %s are lower in most of Europe as well.

Their effective tax rate is lower too, since once you don't need to pay as much for education and healthcare, your take-home pay is higher. You have extra time to sleep, spend with your family and friends, or go out for a walk / read. Your mind doesn't constantly worry about the future of your children or healthcare access due to the social net. This means you're more productive at work and in society.

What's described above is the most evolved liberal democracy. Not the white collar rat race we got here, where we worship billionaires and tax cuts for corporations, where it is still a debate if weapons of mass carnage can be sold to children, where the police force murders its own citizens every day on the streets, where politicians are bought and sold to the highest bidder, in the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#47

Post by tomp »

dkural wrote: post #46

The article keeps repeating how America is the "most highly evolved liberal democracy", most advanced / modern country etc. This is simply not true. Many European countries have free / low cost education, including higher education, free healthcare where it is rationed by need as opposed to $, maternal and paternal leave, paid vacations, some have free childcare, access to mental healthcare, decriminalization of drug…

on the other hand, US has been a democracy for by far the longest. Other European countries pale in comparision, with the possible exception of the UK.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#48

Post by noahdesu »

The first thing I did when I opened this article was search for "rat", and was happy to see it there. From the comments I saw I had a hunch it might be: I recently finished a really powerful chapter in the book "Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs" which describes an experiment involving rats that ostensibly shows that addiction isn't about the chemical, but rather it's about the environment and feeling alone.

But that chapter also discussed the broader challenge of escaping the view point entrenched in a generation that has only known addiction as a direct result of chemical action. And a huge part of this article, at least the first half or so I got through, painted this chemical action picture:

"The molecules derived from it have effectively conquered contemporary America." and it kept going on and on, to describe all the effects in wondrous terms, which seems to just reinforce what the book I've been reading claims are already a societal level view points.

I'm by no means qualified to speak about addiction from a public health stand point, nor do I really understand the pharmacological action of any drugs. But this book highlights many experiments or studies that indicate our current thinking is ass backwards, only to have the work squashed and funding ripped away. Now, I cannot stop but seeing these threads in most content produced regarding the drug war or opioid crisis. It'd be nice to know for sure, but it has become very difficult to even entertain the bullshit that politicians are still peddling w.r.t. to the drug war and realistic solutions.

Re: The Poison We Pick

#49

Post by mfringel »

meri_dian wrote: post #45
GuiA wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the article mentions successful approaches to reducing the problem other governments have used, so I don’t know, maybe read the article? One of the few proven ways to reduce overdose deaths is to establish supervised injection sites that eventually wean users off the hard stuff while steering them into counseling, safe housing, and job training. After the first injection site in North America opened in Vancouv…

Overdose deaths are cut in half because they have access to clean drugs. Show me statistics that they have actually kicked the habit.

I'm not sure why anyone owes you that data. Can you elaborate?

Re: The Poison We Pick

#50

Post by gnode »

gt_ wrote: post #28
jacobush wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a good development?

Well, it depends on what you believe is the culprit, but the easy scape goats are long debunked at this point. We will some day realize that the psychological situation of income inequality (or other socioeconomic equivalences) is the root of drug epidemics. The sooner that happens, the better, because neither incarceration or isolated treatment can address this. Everyone grows up with different experiences and I thi…

You argue that the drug epidemic is the result of income inequality, but then go on to say it's loss of hope that's the problem. Are you arguing that income inequality is the cause of this loss of hope, thus drug addiction?
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