China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants • Hacker News Board

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#231

Post by jonathanstrange » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:13 AM UTC

fdsak wrote: post #227

sonnhy wrote: post #222

They talk about China yet still a few realize that we are as well going into that direction. CCTV are everywhere, Facebook and Google have our identities, what we like, what we look for, what will be our probable next move (also in terms of real world position) and our routines. If ever a Chinese that feel safe in his home comes to the outer world (to us) he would say "how could this nation is so undeveloped to not a…

I think Chinese are not that smart to use some fancy words like "freedom of speech" "democracy" "individual liberty" but still doing same things as all other is doing. The problem here is how some country builds narrative and justification around her actions. Digital age is double edge sword and everyone is going to bleed under the pretext of security.

China is a one-party system in which the country is run by a single cadre of 'politicians'. There is corruption everywhere and there are Draconian laws which are applied selectively and sometimes enforced and sometimes not (e.g. half of all food stands in cities are illegal, riding motorbikes is illegal in many cities, etc.). Internet and phone calls are constantly monitored and filtered based on certain words to the extent that if you use a certain word even in a different and completely innocuous context your phone call is interrupted or your internet connection stops working. There are hundreds of political prisoners and laws are applied selectively based on your standing within the party. There are political re-education camps and critiques of the government are frequently arrested under bogus and clearly invented pretexts, are often often put under house arrest, and are constantly harassed and surveilled by all kinds of authorities. Public protests are persecuted as uprisings against the state, using various deliberately vague and overly broad laws.

The idea that the differences between China and freer countries are merely a matter of the 'narrative' is patently ridiculous. It is also false, because according to the Chinese constitution, "...citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration." So yes, China officially has the same narrative, it just doesn't have any due process, has massive surveillance not even remotely comparable to Western countries, and suffers from massive corruption in the hands of a single 'party'.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#232

Post by fdsak » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:17 AM UTC

justicezyx wrote: post #57

PricelessValue wrote: post #23

> China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants What silly clickbait. I swear the media ( or propaganda ) sure loves to scaremonger with "china". The brits want it. Europe wants it. Russia wants it. And the liberal and conservatives in the US want it. The leading surveillance systems in the world aren't in china. It's in britain. It's in the US. Edit: Holy cow, the brigade is strong here.

I have chatted with people providing tech support for this. The level of monitoring is beyond your wildest imagination. The anecdotal number says Xinjiang spent 30B RMB on the security and surveillance. I have no details about the exact expense items.

I think that is because they have large populace to deal with

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#233

Post by fdsak » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:22 AM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #33

PricelessValue wrote: post #23

> China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants What silly clickbait. I swear the media ( or propaganda ) sure loves to scaremonger with "china". The brits want it. Europe wants it. Russia wants it. And the liberal and conservatives in the US want it. The leading surveillance systems in the world aren't in china. It's in britain. It's in the US. Edit: Holy cow, the brigade is strong here.

Did you read the article? Not sure about you but I don't have to put my government issued ID on my kitchen knives.

Well if you start to kill people on street and doing nasty things that is not impossible to tag the knives :). If you look in to history of this particular area there have been fierce street fighting and there was a tradition or culture to hang your sword/dagger or knife around your waist (before these new laws established). I think that is for public security and peace its not oppression and the law is tailored to address their local needs.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#234

Post by jonathanstrange » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:26 AM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #220

dandare wrote: post #201

Without pointing a finger, I will say I would be really surprised if this discussion - and HN in general - was not subject to a discourse control by paid state agents (sophisticated trolls) from China and elsewhere. Assuming that it is, what can we learn or do to miting such influences? Asking for independent source to all claims is obviously the first step.

So I've been in trouble on HN (probably rightly so) once before for pointing the finger. With that in mind... The problem is that 'their' only objective is to undermine 'our' goal of having a balanced, honest discussion that arrives at some kind of valid, valuable truth. If a troll or discourse control agent can undermine that process, then they've 'won'. And it's pretty easy to do. Actually, demanding sources is a g…

I believe that the only way to counter concerted trolling/discourse control is by heavy human moderation in combination with IP banning and eventually even shadow-banning. As Slashdot is in my opinion illustrating, merely having a decent moderation and meta-moderation system might not be enough. You need to permban IPs of identified trolls, and in the end it doesn't matter whether these are part of a concerted effort or just individuals who post toxic content.

Hobby researchers on Reddit have found out that they were able to push a story to the frontpage by spending a very low amount of money (about 200 USD if I remember correctly) for some puppet accounts and making sure that the very early moderation upvotes their story and downvotes critique. That gives us an idea how hard it is to counter concerted efforts of influencing discussions.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#235

Post by fdsak » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 11:53 AM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #231

fdsak wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Chinese are not that smart to use some fancy words like "freedom of speech" "democracy" "individual liberty" but still doing same things as all other is doing. The problem here is how some country builds narrative and justification around her actions. Digital age is double edge sword and everyone is going to bleed under the pretext of security.

China is a one-party system in which the country is run by a single cadre of 'politicians'. There is corruption everywhere and there are Draconian laws which are applied selectively and sometimes enforced and sometimes not (e.g. half of all food stands in cities are illegal, riding motorbikes is illegal in many cities, etc.). Internet and phone calls are constantly monitored and filtered based on certain words to the…

I think its not "ridiculous" if you look at the outcome the narrative of fee societies is democracy which they use as weapon to destroy and plunder other countries, capture resources. I am not concerned how much a state is good with their own people but if they are using that same context to wage a war in another part of world that is so bad, uncivilized and undemocratic. For example if China start to export their socialism through force and use that to capture resources I ll be first to oppose that idea. China is massively big country with its third-world problems and new digital age issues one cannot suggest same pill as use in west.

West has lost all moral ground to become a world leader on these issues after what has happen and is happening to various middle eastern countries in recent day.

And what is current happening to these communities in China are direct side effect of West's interest in these issues and exploitation (e.g their rebel leader is current living in American) and every country has right to clean their backyard not just US or some other country.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#236

Post by akvadrako » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:06 PM UTC

westiseast wrote: post #220

dandare wrote: post #201

Without pointing a finger, I will say I would be really surprised if this discussion - and HN in general - was not subject to a discourse control by paid state agents (sophisticated trolls) from China and elsewhere. Assuming that it is, what can we learn or do to miting such influences? Asking for independent source to all claims is obviously the first step.

So I've been in trouble on HN (probably rightly so) once before for pointing the finger. With that in mind... The problem is that 'their' only objective is to undermine 'our' goal of having a balanced, honest discussion that arrives at some kind of valid, valuable truth. If a troll or discourse control agent can undermine that process, then they've 'won'. And it's pretty easy to do. Actually, demanding sources is a g…

I wish we had troll armies going around demanding sources everywhere. That would greatly elevate the level of discussion on most forums. If you don't have unbiased scientific sources to backup your claim, I don't see how you will convince me your ideas have merit.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#237

Post by narag » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:10 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #181

ordinaryradical wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me there is a large public relations push to normalize their authoritarianism in the view of Westerners. Then you hear about bloggers being imprisoned for pointing out corruption according to the government’s own definitions. China’s authoritarianism looks attractive when it’s about infrastructure and efficiency, but the underside of it, the collective silencing and destruction of debate, the “blank spots” i…

> Seems to me there is a large public relations push to normalize their authoritarianism in the view of Westerners. So, bigger than the push to make it appear worse than it is? Because that has been a tactic with any competing nation/enemy du jour of the west for over a century... Not to mention that everything is judged with US-norms and interpreted through US-preferences in all those articles (aside and above the i…

Human rights are not US-norms, there are many pitfalls that have been detected in last couple of centuries in the US and in representative democracies all over the world. Supressing freedom of speach, basic economic freedoms, due process... lead invariably to disaster, being it dictatorships, coups, generalized corruption, etc.

There is nothing special with Chinese people that makes dictatorship good for them while it's bad for us.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#238

Post by jonathanstrange » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

fdsak wrote: post #235

jonathanstrange wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a one-party system in which the country is run by a single cadre of 'politicians'. There is corruption everywhere and there are Draconian laws which are applied selectively and sometimes enforced and sometimes not (e.g. half of all food stands in cities are illegal, riding motorbikes is illegal in many cities, etc.). Internet and phone calls are constantly monitored and filtered based on certain words to the…

I think its not "ridiculous" if you look at the outcome the narrative of fee societies is democracy which they use as weapon to destroy and plunder other countries, capture resources. I am not concerned how much a state is good with their own people but if they are using that same context to wage a war in another part of world that is so bad, uncivilized and undemocratic. For example if China start to export their so…

You're offering nothing but lame excuses. You have not provided a single reason why China could not be a more democratic country with more than one party, less corruption, and more reasonable laws that are applied with due process and not selectively. The idea that more freedom and less corruptions inevitably leads to unrest is a non-sequitur. It has worked out quite well for those former East Bloc countries that are now in the EU.

You're also deviating from the topic. It is quite obviously and ostensively possible to have all these benefits for your citizens without oppressing other countries or waging unjust wars, in fact the majority of countries with a high degree of freedom, a multi-party system, and a high degree of due process are currently not waging any wars at all.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#239

Post by whooshee » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:19 PM UTC

pentae wrote: post #99

So can anyone tell me why we should support what China is doing? Why should any entrepreneur or tech worker go there and support this government? How come China seems to get a free pass on human rights issues like this by western society?

Okay, why would the world still 'support' the U.S.? Given the U.S. and her other allies starting wars in middle east, so many innocent lives were taken. And the U.S. got away easily even no WMD found in Iraq.

Many things are partially ordered.

Normal people in Xinjiang would prefer a stable Xinjiang not some groups' idealized usually chaotic one.

Speaking of human right, raising living standards is the most pressing issue in China, and there are still many poor people in China need the help from the gov't. When they got richer, there will be more middle-class buy things from the West and the rest of the world.

Some countries can still bash China on many issues whereas making bigger deals with China at the same time.

China is still an entry level player on that.

The world cannot leave the U.S. and China and any countries on this planet even though I guess quite a few folks hate each other. Because they buy things from each other.

Money talks, if you will.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#240

Post by fdsak » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 12:23 PM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #238

fdsak wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its not "ridiculous" if you look at the outcome the narrative of fee societies is democracy which they use as weapon to destroy and plunder other countries, capture resources. I am not concerned how much a state is good with their own people but if they are using that same context to wage a war in another part of world that is so bad, uncivilized and undemocratic. For example if China start to export their so…

You're offering nothing but lame excuses. You have not provided a single reason why China could not be a more democratic country with more than one party, less corruption, and more reasonable laws that are applied with due process and not selectively. The idea that more freedom and less corruptions inevitably leads to unrest is a non-sequitur. It has worked out quite well for those former East Bloc countries that are…

Give me example of one single country that is not waging any war or complicit of it ?

The other point is why the world should go by force for democracy?

Democracy is freedom, I don't like that democracy I am happy with dictatorship why someone should cry ? ( not pointing at you).

Lets say whole population is happy with their dictator and living a decent life,unless someone is arming rebels and inciting political turmoil by funding innocent people. Why you should interfere in their lives ?

So the question here is , is this political turmoil in China is happening purely by the desire of local populace or someone is funding because they have a hidden agenda ? As we have seen in recent year and seeing this elsewhere e.g in Syria where Us and West are engaged , this has not been just local desire but neighbors and everyone else interested in certain Geo-political goals, which kills the idea and need for democracy.

Democracy should come by learning by indigenous people, for indigenous it should not be "MY" desire or someone else desire.