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Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

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Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#171

Post by mulmen »

gilgoomesh wrote: post #150
austincheney wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. This is a serious misunderstanding of what education is or is for. Higher education doesn't exist to provide a skill. That is what trade schools are for. I know this is largely disagreeable for many people on here who learned to program in a university CS program. Higher education exists to provide the educational backgr…

I know that's what everyone claims but it's an insidious trope that encourages people to trust in a system that lacks measurable benefit. "Don't worry that you'll never use this information. Trust us: we've prepared you in nebulous ways that can't be measured or critiqued."

I was continually measured and critiqued in college. It was called grading.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#172

Post by justin66 »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135
vanilla_nut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I come from a rural area and I feel that college was absolutely worth it for me, even with the huge bill that I had to pay myself. (I graduated fairly recently) College was the first time in my life when I feel like I truly took responsibility for myself, and people generally thought I was a responsible kid growing up. I finally found myself in a place where I could make friends who shared interest…

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

Did you graduate from college? No judgments from me if you didn't (my family tree is richly populated with smart and successful people who didn't) but the way you're talking about college reminds me, perhaps wrongly, of the way I might have talked about sex in high school. With enthusiasm and a reliance on theory rather than experience.

OTOH, if you attended college I'm pretty curious what that was like for you.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#173

Post by justin66 »

zamfi wrote: post #165
throwaway0255 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

> Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetectable unmeasurable X-factor. We can't see it, we can't prove that it exists, but it's there, and its value is absolutely incalculable. Historically, college was a finishing school for the wealthy. This is not a new argument. The new argument is that colleges should provide job training. Previously, this was the role of…

> The new argument is that colleges should provide job training. Previously, this was the role of vocational or training schools.

And employers.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#174

Post by throwawayjava »

bernardino wrote: post #139
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

> they insist that the school you graduate from plays a crucial role and there is numerous benefits which out-do the benefits of attending a low-tier school

In the case of Berkeley and a few others, they are absolutely correct.

I've seen both sides of the unknown school / huge name brand divide.

It matters. A lot. It shouldn't, it's a shame, but it does.

In CS, you will turn out just fine either way. But it does matter.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#175

Post by jonathankoren »

hermitdev wrote: post #108
bllguo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective. And because of things like this, rural folk don't want "our" help. They fall further behind, become more insular and hateful. Self-reinforcing cycle. Solving these problems is extremely important and will likely involve harsh tradeoffs. Unfortunately, in the US it feels like we need some dramatic examples before people will finally accept that tradeoffs are necessary.

Let me preface by: I don't mean to offend, but I think your perception is fundamentally wrong. Rural folk don't want help from your "our" because their situation is different than yours. What works for major metropolitan areas doesn't work for small or rural schools. In an area where likely career paths involve working on or inheriting the family farm or ranch, more urban-centric curricula don't make sense. It's not…

Where are you talking about? Because as a rural Illinoisan, none of this rings true. Response times aren't anywhere like a major metropolitan city, but they are not nearly as abysmal as you're saying.

Also, assuming kids are going to be working on "the family farm or ranch" is ignoring the past 50 years agricultural consolidation in America. The economic landscape of the rural midwest has changed a lot in just my lifetime.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#176

Post by kayoone »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

With an education system where you have to pay (in my mind) ridiculous amounts of money to obtain a degree, i agree fully.

It is different in countries where education is essentially free, here i actually would recommend anyone to get the best education they possibly can, it can just benefit society as a whole even if most people don't retain many details of learned material.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#177

Post by amorphid »

bernardino wrote: post #139
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

I'm in San Francisco. When you decide to start looking for work, let me know. I can (in my own mind) teach you all the buttons to push to get employers excited about hiring you. It helps to be competent, too :)

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#178

Post by throwawayfjk »

jacobolus wrote: post #100
throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

Can you quote the part that you feel is condescending? The text of the article seems largely straightforward and factual to me. It doesn’t say that there’s anything inherently bad about not going to college, but rather that not having a college degree has made it difficult for some people to find new careers in places where many types of labor are facing declining demand because of large structural forces, and that t…

I would assume that the rural are rational to the same degree as anyone else, so the statistical difference mostly means they find college less beneficial relative to their opportunities. There is too much of an agenda feel to this piece, from the title to selective interviews and statistics

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#179

Post by bernardino »

forapurpose wrote: post #164
bernardino wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

> While college, as you mentioned, has become just a pursuit for "paper credentials for a specialized position you want ... You are going to cost yourself a lifetime of benefit if you make a decision based on these Internet rants of the moment; in 10 years they will be forgotten and you will be stuck with the consequences. One thing you learn with a real education is how to evaluate serious ideas and separate them fr…

Well said, and thank you. What you said reminds me a lot of the first few pages in the first chapter, The Function of Education, from Krishnamurti's Think On These Things - a good read.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#180

Post by jonathankoren »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #43

As a graduate of a very rural American school (to give you an idea, my entire pre-k through 12th grade school was housed in a single building, with below 500 kids total; my graduating class was just over 30 students, and I was one of 3 who went on to a 4-year school -- fewer than 10 of us went to any college at all)... this article isn't very good. Like some other commenters have pointed out, the author failed to int…

A million upvotes if I could.

I also had a similar experience. (53 people in my HS graduating class, with a high school population of approximately 200.) While I have no reason to believe that the school wasn't trying their best, the fact is that the school just didn't have the same academic opportunities as other schools.

My parents made it clear that I was going to go to college, because neither of them did. They gave me every opportunity they could. We went to museums. They sent me geek camp so I could be around other college bound kids. Had me take classes at the local junior college over the summer. We weren't poor, but these opportunities certainly weren't cheap.

What strikes me looking back at my high school graduating class is how few of them left. How few went to college. Of my friends at my high school, maybe only 2 moved away, and I don't even know how many went to college. Maybe six. It's really sad. 20 years later, and find them still working as a cashier at Walmart. I just did not expect that. I honestly expected everyone would scatter. They just didn't.

Conversely, the friends I made at geek camp (which were also all similar rural kids) all went to college, and scattered across the country. They also all have good jobs with advanced degrees.

Parents are probably the biggest factor in deciding a child's success. And quite frankly, all too often rural parents simply don't value education. It's all the same sterotypes we've heard. "Big cities are scary." "You'll turn into a muckity muck." "College is for brainwashing." Even as simple as, "You shouldn't leave all of us."

I often flip back to a feature in the local paper about graduating kids[0], and what strikes me more than anything is about how everyone in the article is down on education and leaving. Even one of the students that went to college intentionally aims low, and then even lower.

I've been there, and I just don't have a lot of sympathy for these people. It's a self-destructive culture.

[0] http://thesouthern.com/news/local/rural-brain-drain/

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