Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates • Hacker News Board

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#151

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:00 AM UTC

bernardino wrote: post #139

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

only you can decide, but since you asked, I will give you my input.

a bachelor's degree helps a lot to get pretty much any white-collar, entry-level job. in some fields it's barely enough, but in ours, having a BS with a decent GPA and a couple internships basically guarantees you a job. you might not be able to work at FAANG type companies, but someone will definitely be willing to compensate you well for your work.

a degree from a prestigious school is better than a degree from most state schools, but if it takes you another year or two to start collecting that salary and build real work experience, it could ultimately be a wash.

sounds like you already know what path you want to take, and I bet it will work out just fine.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#152

Post by throwaway0255 » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:01 AM UTC

bernardino wrote: post #139

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

This comes at, I think, a critical point for me. In short, I spent four years at a community college (completing my associate degree in CS and exhausting almost all the courses I found interesting i.e. Mysticism, Writing Short Fiction, etc), and now in the fall I'm planning to attend San Francisco State University for CS. A few old high school friends, who attend Berkeley (one just graduated and is starting work in f…

When I mentioned government-mandated credentials, I was thinking more of the medical and legal fields. Software engineering is ideal in this respect, because it's pretty much unregulated in that regard.

That makes software engineering an ideal choice for people not going to college at all. But since you're already 4 years in, you might as well finish. So definitely finish.

Outside of credentialism, there's still the other reason, and I think this is the one motivating the advice you're getting from your friends:

> to compete for a higher position in the social hierarchy

You'll be more effective at this if you wait and go to the higher-status university.

From your current position, I'd definitely recommend finishing your degree, and since we've already optimized for status, I think I would wait and go to the university with the more fashionable brand if that option is available to you.

Top companies write a lot about how they've found no correlation between university ranking and job performance, but then they continue spending millions on job fairs and hiring mostly people out of top universities.

Your friends are right that many companies, especially big ones, will treat you very differently depending on which of these two schools you choose. Good luck.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#153

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:01 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #137

huac wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most elite universities have income-based financial aid and going to one could easily conceivably be cheaper or at least on par with going to a state school. Of course one big problem is that rural students don't know that

A friend of mine chose the college we went to specifically because she was told about all the need-based financial aid that's available to students like her. You know, the kind that grew up learning to pick the mold off the bread and how awful government cheese was. Imagine her surprise when there's no such thing as a free ride, and there wasn't actually so much available. Also, if you think there's enough "elite" un…

[deleted]

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#154

Post by jacobolus » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #143

throwaway0255 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's important to keep in mind that college is meant to enrich people as individuals, not explicitly prepare them for jobs. Technical/vocational schools are for job prep. The more college is shown to be failing the job market, the more I hear this argument. Are people who don't go to college less enriched individuals? Lately, academics seem to be shifting their value proposition to the instillation of this undetect…

the idea that literally everyone should go / would benefit from going to college is definitely wrong and harmful, but there are some special things about college for those who take advantage. college is probably the only time in your life that an entire team of domain experts will be obligated to take time out of their day to meet with you and answer your questions, however silly or low-level they may be. as a profes…

> not only have no near-term value, but likely will never have any practical value at all!

Not coincidentally, most of the most powerful world-altering ideas (the type that spawn trillions of dollars of new previously unconsidered industries, lead to new communication mediums, cause or prevent wars, topple governments, or set the terms of future laws) come out of work done at colleges or other publicly funded research institutions, often considered at the time to be of no practical value.

There are whole fields of study which serve as society-wide multipliers but each individual tiny advance is not worth it to any particular company to hire someone to spend their whole career studying.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#155

Post by rpvnwnkl » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:07 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #76

thomastjeffery wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the world focus on cities? Those who are born and raised in rural areas can't just uproot their lives the moment they turn 18 and start to afford, or even enjoy city life. Because the commute is closer? It's still at least as slow in many places, because of traffic problems generated by tighter clusters of people. The idea that cities are the most optimal is an idea, not a proven fact. Your experience may…

I grew up in a rural town. I left right when I turned 18, and so did most everyone I know. Maybe they shouldn't have let WalMart come in and destroy all the local businesses. Maybe they shouldn't have sold the paper mill to 4 different conglomerates with significant lay-offs each time. And maybe now they shouldn't vote republican in every election like they truly don't give a shit about anybody. Nobody is going back.…

Are you from Mexico?

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#156

Post by jjeaff » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #145

throwaway0255 wrote: post #94

Most jobs don't require higher education. Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. Are people who didn't follow the author up the ivory tower all failures who just fell through the cracks? What if some people are perfectly happy working in HVAC? These articles are always so condescending. The position that all people should by default go to college and that peopl…

> Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education. This is a serious misunderstanding of what education is or is for. Higher education doesn't exist to provide a skill. That is what trade schools are for. I know this is largely disagreeable for many people on here who learned to program in a university CS program. Higher education exists to provide the educational backgr…

>necessary to function in a professional, often corporate, setting. This means things like communications skills, following complex directions, and problem solving

I wonder if just working in a corporate setting and learning these skills as an intern or junior employee might be far more effective.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#157

Post by jacobolus » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #137

huac wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most elite universities have income-based financial aid and going to one could easily conceivably be cheaper or at least on par with going to a state school. Of course one big problem is that rural students don't know that

A friend of mine chose the college we went to specifically because she was told about all the need-based financial aid that's available to students like her. You know, the kind that grew up learning to pick the mold off the bread and how awful government cheese was. Imagine her surprise when there's no such thing as a free ride, and there wasn't actually so much available. Also, if you think there's enough "elite" un…

At the top schools, students from that background pay zero in tuition or room & board, and get a small stipend to help pay for textbooks and living expenses. (Source: based on my mother’s solidly middle class elementary school teacher salary, my college ended up being free the last 2 years circa 2010, and I had a roommate who was from a working class background and had a free ride + a stipend, based entirely on need-based aid.) I imagine if travel expenses are a severe hardship, the college can probably figure out a way to help.

It’s only a small fraction of the students at those schools who vacation in the Hamptons or whatever. Arguably the richest students have an outsized social influence, but most students are from an upper middle class background (top 10–15% by wealth/income, but not top 1%), and there are plenty of middle class and at least some working class students (though less than we might hope) at all of the elite American colleges.

The bigger problem for several students I knew from impoverished backgrounds was that they were not used to the scholastic demands of the school. Students at elite schools are expected to do a lot of reading every week, are expected to speak up and assert themselves in small discussion seminars, are expected to write competently at a level considerably beyond what many high schools expect, are expected to solve difficult nonstandard problems in their technical courses, etc. For someone unprepared it can be a big culture shock. The combination of being away from home and in a new social environment, having autonomy over (and lack of external structure for) time, and getting smacked with a very stiff workload can add up to a lot of stress even for the best prepared students. For someone who is feeling like they are behind or don’t belong and haven’t had a similar workload before it can be extra hard. Those kids were just as smart and hard-working as anyone there, just not as well prepared in some ways.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#158

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

hermitdev wrote: post #101

forapurpose wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People generally move or commute to cities for higher education I'm not sure that's true. My impression is that most universities are in small towns. In the U.S., that describes many large state universities. I would guess that the cost of land in cities is a big reason. EDIT: With many large universities enrolling tens of thousands of students, plus employing faculty and staff and supporting all the third parties…

It depends on where you are. I think your impression that most universities are in small towns is an apt description of midwestern universities (i.e. states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, etc). It doesn't hold for either the west or east coast, really. See U of Washington, U of Oregon, Oregon State, state schools of California, state schools of New York, etc, etc. Sure, they might be in smaller cities, but…

UW has a pretty good CS program, and is less than 8 hours away from Missoula (if you lived close to there). UW unfortunately does not offer in state tuition to border states (unless from certain native american tribes).

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#159

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

lugg wrote: post #117

hermitdev wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eugene would be the largest city in Montana, ND, SD or Wyoming, for example. What constitutes a "large" city is largely shaped by perspective. Corvallis would likewise be one of the larger cities in most "fly-over" states.

For clarification I just assumed that if you could support a modern University attendence you by definition had a population density that far exceeds what I would call rural. (Next house miles away) In other words, small town or city, neither is what I would describe as "rural". What the study defines as rural would probably cover a lot of small towns I suspect so who really knows.

Many universities are located in the middle of nowhere and students "go there" to study, WSU was already mentioned, but Purdue, UIUC, Cornell, ...their are many University towns that don't have many (if any) local students at all.

Re: Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School Graduates

#160

Post by cmrdporcupine » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:23 AM UTC

IntronExon wrote: post #45

nugi wrote: post #6

The world continues to focus on cities, while the rest of the people are left behind. I notice a clear metropolitan bias on HN, often incredulous that 1st world citizens are still living in a unimproved state. Even an 30min from one of the 10 biggest cities on the USA, broadband is still unavailable to a majority, ambulance times are in hours, and school funding is increasingly disappearing. Please keep in your minds…

Even an 30min from one of the 10 biggest cities on the USA, broadband is still unavailable to a majority, ambulance times are in hours, and school funding is increasingly disappearing. The first claim seems unlikely, unless that’s 30 minutes at the speed of sound. I’d need solid citations to bite. The second seems unlikely as well, and given how bad response times can be in disadvantaged parts of cities, I’d wonder i…

I'm in Canada, but I live rural/exurban in the greater Toronto/Hamilton area, less than 8km from town and less than 20km from two major cities and there's no broadband because it's not profitable to run DSL or cable to my road. Telcos/Cable companies just won't do it. The next road over has it, through some fluke.