Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures • Hacker News Board

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#11

Post by freedomben » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:58 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

What is going to be an issue, is that opiods (like heroin, Fentanyl, morphine, oxycodone) actually have a clinical use apart from the abuse. So either the vaccine is very specific and just changing from say fentanyl to another of the many available opiods defeats the vaccine, or else it renders a whole class of drugs that may be legitimately used for pain management or anesthesia during surgery no longer able to be u…

My thoughts exactly. So somebody gets this vaccine and then breaks their arm or goes into surgery, and suddenly there is no pain treatment available to them because of the vaccine.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#12

Post by tcj_phx » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 3:58 AM UTC

fake-name wrote: post #6

hookdump wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting points. Something else I'd point out is that science often goes through the trouble of finding paliative solutions rather than developing a fundamental understanding of the root causes. If you don't tackle the root causes of addiction, they'll respawn identically or in the form of other addictions, in my opinion. Re. your quote about the ego, I didn't quite get its meaning. Can you elaborate on it?

I don't think any of the people involved in the science here want to be doing paliative solutions, but rather it's the best they can get funding for. It's much harder to fund "we have to completely rework our public health infrastructure" (in the US, at least), then "We can help save these lives in ".

> I don't think any of the people involved in the science here want to be doing paliative solutions, but rather it's the best they can get funding for.

Elisabeth Rosenthal wrote An American Sickness about this phenomenon. This essay is a good preview: How Economic Incentives have Created our Dysfunctional US Medical Market - https://medium.com/@RosenthalHealth/how-economic-incentives-...

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#13

Post by oldcynic » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #3

> Rather than activate the receptor, another drug called naltrexone blocks the receptor and can decrease cravings over time. Naltrexone is essentially a vaccine against both opioids and and alcohol. My recovered-alcoholic friend found that Naltrexone eliminated her ability to consume large amounts of alcohol. But she drank "to make it all go away", and Naltrexone didn't provide any relief for her emotional problems.…

> I told him I thought my friend (whom I've mentioned here before) was predisposed to addiction on account of her being adopted

How on earth does that follow? Adoption, in and of itself, is not an "adverse childhood experience". You seem to be equating it with abuse, which it clearly isn't.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#14

Post by IntronExon » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:14 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #11

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

What is going to be an issue, is that opiods (like heroin, Fentanyl, morphine, oxycodone) actually have a clinical use apart from the abuse. So either the vaccine is very specific and just changing from say fentanyl to another of the many available opiods defeats the vaccine, or else it renders a whole class of drugs that may be legitimately used for pain management or anesthesia during surgery no longer able to be u…

My thoughts exactly. So somebody gets this vaccine and then breaks their arm or goes into surgery, and suddenly there is no pain treatment available to them because of the vaccine.

For you or me that’s a really valid concern, but the damage to someone from opiate abuse is so extreme I think they’d take that risk. In fact some might even see the inability of a well meaning medical professional to dose them with an opiate as a feature, not a bug.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#15

Post by gwbas1c » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:47 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

What is going to be an issue, is that opiods (like heroin, Fentanyl, morphine, oxycodone) actually have a clinical use apart from the abuse. So either the vaccine is very specific and just changing from say fentanyl to another of the many available opiods defeats the vaccine, or else it renders a whole class of drugs that may be legitimately used for pain management or anesthesia during surgery no longer able to be u…

More recent knowledge shows that Tylenol works better for pain management.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#16

Post by Animats » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 4:55 AM UTC

There have been previous attempts. There was "NicVax", which blocks nicotine somewhat. That made it to Phase III trials, but it wasn't very effective.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#17

Post by tcj_phx » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

oldcynic wrote: post #13

tcj_phx wrote: post #3

> Rather than activate the receptor, another drug called naltrexone blocks the receptor and can decrease cravings over time. Naltrexone is essentially a vaccine against both opioids and and alcohol. My recovered-alcoholic friend found that Naltrexone eliminated her ability to consume large amounts of alcohol. But she drank "to make it all go away", and Naltrexone didn't provide any relief for her emotional problems.…

> I told him I thought my friend (whom I've mentioned here before) was predisposed to addiction on account of her being adopted How on earth does that follow? Adoption, in and of itself, is not an "adverse childhood experience". You seem to be equating it with abuse, which it clearly isn't.

The fetus imprints its mother's voice. Searching for that brings up lots of relevant links, such as How a mother’s voice shapes her baby’s developing brain, https://aeon.co/ideas/how-a-mother-s-voice-shapes-her-baby-s...

Some children are fine after getting adopted. Others have issues. For example, the adoptive parents of the recent Florida school shooter tried to get their adopted son help, but he never did well, and apparently completely fell apart after his adopted mother passed away.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#18

Post by hrktb » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

IntronExon wrote: post #14

freedomben wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. So somebody gets this vaccine and then breaks their arm or goes into surgery, and suddenly there is no pain treatment available to them because of the vaccine.

For you or me that’s a really valid concern, but the damage to someone from opiate abuse is so extreme I think they’d take that risk. In fact some might even see the inability of a well meaning medical professional to dose them with an opiate as a feature, not a bug.

The hard part is that anesthesia is not just for comfort. I am not a doctor, but having the body in a low excitement mode for complex surgery must be an advantage.

So resistance to anesthesia could mean no surgery beyond the most basic ones.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#19

Post by selectodude » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #15

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

What is going to be an issue, is that opiods (like heroin, Fentanyl, morphine, oxycodone) actually have a clinical use apart from the abuse. So either the vaccine is very specific and just changing from say fentanyl to another of the many available opiods defeats the vaccine, or else it renders a whole class of drugs that may be legitimately used for pain management or anesthesia during surgery no longer able to be u…

More recent knowledge shows that Tylenol works better for pain management.

You're not cutting somebody open with acetaminophen.

Re: Vaccines against addictive drugs push forward despite past failures

#20

Post by ShorsHammer » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 8:06 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

What is going to be an issue, is that opiods (like heroin, Fentanyl, morphine, oxycodone) actually have a clinical use apart from the abuse. So either the vaccine is very specific and just changing from say fentanyl to another of the many available opiods defeats the vaccine, or else it renders a whole class of drugs that may be legitimately used for pain management or anesthesia during surgery no longer able to be u…

The main pathway for opioid addiction is surgery. Doctors who prescribed the drugs can also prescribe an end to it too.

Simplistic yes, but such a drug could prevent a lot of harm.

Considering how much the mainstream dialogue is about illicit drugs its probably time to start talking about the far more common addictions and associated problems.