Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#311

Post by telchar » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

Dirlewanger wrote: post #201

emodendroket wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that a dishwasher is less wasteful than hand-washing of dishes (perhaps this isn't true for people who are very, very scrupulous about their use of water while washing dishes, but that's not most of us).

Absolutely. A dishwasher in the average American household, unless they're having massive dinner parties every night, is wanton arrogance. They not only use more resources than handwashing, it also takes longer.

You seem to misunderstand. Dishwashers use less heat and water than hand washing, not more.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#312

Post by skookumchuck » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

Putting a tax on the use of such items is better than banning, because it does allow for justifiable uses, if the user is willing to pay for it.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#313

Post by dwaltrip » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

abakker wrote: post #50

emodendroket wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of loss aversion suggests that people would be more likely to avoid taking a bag at the time than they would be to return them for a deposit (not that this is an option with bottles).

I really want a deposit/membership at my local grocery store for reusable bags. I don't want to remember them. I want to use some standard, reusable ones at the store, and then be able to return them in bulk for my deposit back. I end up taking paper bags in SF because I constantly forget to bring reusable ones, despite having dozens at home.

I had the same problem. I keep mine in my car now, which had helped.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#314

Post by skookumchuck » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #230

technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

I'm one of those idiots who always forgets to bring reusable bags but since they passed similar laws in my city, I've cut down on bag use, sometimes just carrying all my items. Laws like that help because groceries no longer assume you want bags. Now you have to make a decision. So even when I do forget and have to buy a bag, I ask for the bare minimum and the clerk just stack my bag as full as possible. In the past,…

Seattle has 5 cent charge for bags. I don't much care for the reusable bags. I just reuse the bags I bought for 5 cents. They can be used several times before they fall apart.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#315

Post by dpark » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

morsch wrote: post #276

dpark wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine that the ecological impact of a canvas bag that gets reused hundreds of times is higher than hundreds of plastic bags that get used once. CO2 production is also not the only impact. How much canvas is floating in the ocean and clogging up rivers?

There are studies on this topic. Here's an article: https://medium.com/stanford-magazine/paper-plastic-or-reusab... I spent an hour or so researching the issue a long time ago and I seem to recall another study by a French supermarket chain. You need to reuse your cotton bags a lot -- hundreds of times is right -- for it to become worthwhile. Which is doable, of course. And of course, the carbon footprint of both pla…

The polypropylene bags sold at many retailers (REI, Whole Foods, etc) only need to be used a few times to offset their increased cost of production.

“Nonwoven PP, on the other hand, is less costly than cotton. These bags need to be reused only 11 times to break even with the conventional plastic.”

Of course these are less durable that heavy cotton canvas. I doubt I could use one of these 200 times. I could definitely use a good canvas bag that many times.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#316

Post by Steko » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

Correction: the 500 million is for six month period. More recent data can be seen here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/carrier-bag-charg...

WRAP previously reported information on carrier bag use based on a voluntary agreement with 7 major retailers (Asda, The Co-operative Group, Marks & Spencer, Morrisons, Sainsbury’s, Tesco and Waitrose). Their data for 2014 showed that these retailers issued 7.6 billion single-use plastic carrier bags in England during that calendar year.

Defra’s data for the year from 7 April 2016 to 6 April 2017 shows a very substantial fall of 83% in the number of single-use plastic carrier bags issued by the seven largest retailers to just 1.3 billion single-use plastic carrier bags.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#317

Post by tpm » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #246

tpm wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what would be the correct course of action to prevent stuff like fish in the sea being full of plastic from happening?

This is the type of dangerous question that leads to interminable lists of laws. If there is any problem and we don't know of another solution that works as well, let's go with the one we do know. It also happens to be the easiest and we know it will work. One wonders why the same solution doesn't apply to paper that is also a serious littering problem? And it's always this same type of appeal to emotion. If you care…

Solving this problem affects everyone. Not solving this problem affects everyone. This is the nature of global environmental problems. Yes, outlawing most of plastic packaging, additives etc. is probably going to happen sooner or later in some parts of the world. With China now banning imports of plastic garbage, the process has already started.

This is probably not related to plastic bags, but still interesting: 73% of deep sea fish ingested plastic https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0219/941718-plastics/

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#318

Post by Sharlin » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

function_seven wrote: post #307

Sharlin wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I used to wash dishes under running warm water, probably quite wasteful. By the way, around here (North Europe) we have special dishwashing brushes that apparently aren’t a big thing in most parts of the world.

Any examples of the special dishwashing brushes? I'm curious.

These sort of things, with a handle and nylon bristles: https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Dish-Brush/dp/B00004OC...

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#319

Post by astrodust » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #262

sdfasdasfsf wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, maybe. But it's super complicated - Plastics really don't mix well. Even trace amount of a different polymer (those numbers in the bottom) will destroy the strength of a batch of plastic (there is research in this though) - Recycling is expensive and in an economic battle against new stock (carbon tax?). Cleaving the bonds to make diesel or feedstock is another option to "recycle" polymers (I dunno why it'…

Plastics being biodegradable might not be much of a net gain. It would help clean up some, but it also means all that carbon makes it’s way into the air. Mixed bag there.

Most plastics labelled "biodegradeable" aren't actually what they say. What they do is break down under ultraviolet light into very tiny particles you can't see but which are still plastic. These diffuse into the environment, but they never truly break down into more natural compounds.

It's the equivalent of sweeping all those bags under the rug. They're still out there, just permeating into everything instead of being visible.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#320

Post by cornholio » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #296

cornholio wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that metric, what is the environment and why is it important to protect it? On an abstract enough scale, we and our plastic are simply evolutionary products and the fact that we are wiping out species and cataclysmically heating the planet is just a geological event that might be called The Great Human Extinction by some distant inteligent race. As George Carlin used to say, the planet is just fine. It's the peopl…

All irrelevant to the comment: how 'pretty' the creek is, is not an ecological metric of merit. Its all about Ph, CO2, erosion and a hundred other things.

Keeping the planet livable and diverse is no more objective than keeping it plastic free. Ecology is by definition a human value, the universe doesn't care about CO2, biodiversity or erosion anymore than it cares about plastic bags.

(But sure, subjectively, plastic bags are a lesser concern, because they merely inconvenience us and trigger our empathy when a critter chokes on them, without directly threatening our own survival).