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Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

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Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#291

Post by rsync »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #201
emodendroket wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that a dishwasher is less wasteful than hand-washing of dishes (perhaps this isn't true for people who are very, very scrupulous about their use of water while washing dishes, but that's not most of us).

Absolutely. A dishwasher in the average American household, unless they're having massive dinner parties every night, is wanton arrogance. They not only use more resources than handwashing, it also takes longer.

I am happy to report that you are completely wrong about this.

The water usage is almost a 10x difference and the power usage of handwashing is 2/3 more:

"A European study comparing hand washing to machine dish washing found that hand washers used as much as 27 gallons of water and 2.5 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy to wash 12 place settings, compared with the 4 gallons and 1.5 kWh used by a hyperefficient dishwasher to wash the same number of dishes."

https://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/wellbeing/washing-dishes-...

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#292

Post by DanBC »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203
wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQuiwp3wnH0

"Right, so I can kill a turtle for five pence then?"

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#293

Post by maym86 »

kodablah wrote: post #264
maym86 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a separate problem caused by not providing homeless people access to toilets. Seems obvious that the solution is more public restrooms not more plastic bags.

> Seems obvious that the solution is more public restrooms While I agree, it's like saying wrt plastic bags in the ocean, "Seems obvious that the solution is less littering" or "Seems obvious the solution is biodegradable bags" etc, etc. It is just so much easier for people to change laws and affect everyone than target the specific problem.

In agree. Enact a laws to provide sufficient puplic restrooms and support for homeless people while also enacting changes to reduce plastic bag usage. My issue is with the implication that reducing plastic bags caused this. Not helping venerable people caused this, the need for plastic bags is a side effect.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#294

Post by sundvor »

icebraining wrote: post #274
monk_e_boy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same idea for guns. Buy back guns for $10,000 each. Soon have guns under control and off the streets. People would be breaking into each others houses to sell them.

Soon have guns under control Or, more likely, they would make more guns to compensate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

The implicit step one being that sale of guns / assault rifles were banned, as it should be.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#295

Post by vmarsy »

technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

Same in France, the stores starting charging for plastic bags (even before the gov introduced a tax) in the early 2000s, and it dropped to 800 millions back in 2010, from 15 billion in 2003.[1][2] Since 2016 they're completely banned.

Glad to see that more countries took similar easy steps.

The E.U. is forcing every member country charge for those bags by the end of 2018, and to make sure on average people use less than 90 bags per person per year by end of 2019.

For comparison, Danish and Finnish use only 4, France 80, and Portuguese 400+ [3]

[1] http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2013/01/03/l-interdict...

[2] https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2003/12/04/202430-la-chasse...

[3] http://www.liberation.fr/france/2016/06/25/sacs-plastique-ce...

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#296

Post by JoeAltmaier »

cornholio wrote: post #202
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd put the prettiness factor down pretty far in environmental concerns. That is part of the 'theatre' side of the equation in fact?

By that metric, what is the environment and why is it important to protect it? On an abstract enough scale, we and our plastic are simply evolutionary products and the fact that we are wiping out species and cataclysmically heating the planet is just a geological event that might be called The Great Human Extinction by some distant inteligent race. As George Carlin used to say, the planet is just fine. It's the peopl…

All irrelevant to the comment: how 'pretty' the creek is, is not an ecological metric of merit. Its all about Ph, CO2, erosion and a hundred other things.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#297

Post by bilalq »

deepvibrations wrote: post #221
monk_e_boy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

The ideal scenario is to reward customers for being environmentally conscious as oppose to penalising those who aren't. eg. A 5p-off your shopping incentive for every re-used bag. However, sadly I don't think this would work as well currently.

In Seattle, this already happens in many (all?) grocery stores.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#298

Post by billsmithaustin »

wybiral wrote: post #219

I live in Austin, Texas and we have a ban on single-use plastic bags. People just have to bring reusable bags when they go shopping or pay extra. It did seem to cut down on the number of bags you see littered about.

Enjoy it while you can. The Texas executive branch is trying to reverse that ban, along with every other single-use plastic bag ban imposed at the city level. See https://www.texastribune.org/2018/01/11/texas-plastic-bag-ba....

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#299

Post by goda90 »

driverdan wrote: post #197
goda90 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the meme of carbon footprint has gotten too deep. We need to address carbon at the power generation, deforestation, and transportation levels. At lower levels or carbon footprint, it's better to worry more about how waste is handled. If we're not reducing, reusing, and recycling, then we're probably adding more junk to the environment that still damages ecosystems.

> At lower levels or carbon footprint, it's better to worry more about how waste is handled. No it isn't. Most countries have plenty of land available for storing waste. So long as its stored properly the environmental impact is negligible. Carbon footprint is far more important.

But where does the larger carbon footprint of reusable, or biodegradable items come from vs the one time use plastic versions? Theres a good chance a lot of it comes from power generation. If we have plentiful clean energy, then higher energy costs to manufacture things in ways to reduce waste results in a net good. So focus on the carbon footprint of the big stuff, while simultaneously reducing physical waste.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#300

Post by yesenadam »

kodablah wrote: post #279
shaki-dora wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Your solution is "plastic isn't bad" as well as "whatabout paper?" and "don't mention the fish, because their cuteness makes us irrational" and "politicians are stupid"? Color me unconvinced.

I think you misread. I didn't offer a solution. I just mentioned inconsistency and the reason why. Your reading is purposefully uncharitable and makes it impossible to have these kinds of discussions rationally.

>Your reading is purposefully uncharitable and makes it impossible to have these kinds of discussions rationally.

That's an assumption of bad faith. Now that is something that makes rational discussion impossible. You seem to see yourself as totally above the person talking with you, because you're just "rational". But you continually appeal to emotion yourself, and that emotion is fear:

"it's a slippery slope", "prohibitionists", "using the long arm of the law" (to describe a 5p charge), "regressive", "dangerous question","interminable lists of laws" etc

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