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Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

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Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#121

Post by Animats »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #108
jacquesm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As often as the asphalt topping.

Uh-oh. In other words, there's a smart road ahead, you can 100% trust it. Except when it's not there, because it hasn't been maintained for decades, and it's unclear where the missing pieces are. Can't see what could possibly go wrong. Plus there's also no incentive for anyone to waylay the smart road off the physical road, because there are no evil people (i.e. with motives that are incompatible with the vehicle's s…

It's a hint, like lane lines. You're going to be using GPS and LIDAR as well. Yes, some of the lamer self-driving systems put too much faith in lane lines.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#122

Post by gnode »

jijojv wrote: post #64

WoW - This looks more real than than the Tesla FSD which many have been scammed into buying which is years away.

Fully self driving cars are essentially here, except for needing an alert driver to take over when they steer into oncoming traffic. When you have Tesla drivers who wedge oranges into the steering wheel to trick the car into believing someone is holding it, Tesla are going to want to make their system robust before rolling it out.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#123

Post by Piskvorrr »

Animats wrote: post #121
Piskvorrr wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh-oh. In other words, there's a smart road ahead, you can 100% trust it. Except when it's not there, because it hasn't been maintained for decades, and it's unclear where the missing pieces are. Can't see what could possibly go wrong. Plus there's also no incentive for anyone to waylay the smart road off the physical road, because there are no evil people (i.e. with motives that are incompatible with the vehicle's s…

It's a hint, like lane lines. You're going to be using GPS and LIDAR as well. Yes, some of the lamer self-driving systems put too much faith in lane lines.

Indeed. Which means that we're back to square one, "it's where most people are, which is exactly the spot where it's least needed; whereas in places where more conventional navigation fails, there's minimal incentive to also build and maintain this."

TL;DR: good roads will be getting better, bad roads won't.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#124

Post by gandhium »

deadA1ias wrote: post #32
stefan_ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought 1:50 was a lot more concerning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx08yRsR9ow&feature=youtu.be... That pedestrian is already in the street and they momentarily stutter then pass the pedestrian with very little room. That and the way the steering seems super sensitive to various snow remainders on the side of the street. It's almost as if it's controlling for its position relative to the snow instead of pickin…

In much of Europe, and I would assume Russia as well, that's a pretty typical scenario. I suspect the car is set up to handle the situation much like a native driver.

> like a native driver.

Considering the amount of traffic-related deaths in Russia... They'd better handle it like non-native driver.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#125

Post by keldaris »

tw04 wrote: post #115
keldaris wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it should be easy to show a self-driving car working in those conditions. Somehow, despite this argument coming up in virtually every discussion of this kind, nobody's done it yet.

What are you talking about? Ford demonstrated this 2 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8

Did they ever release any substantial information in that regard? The video just shows a few cars slowly driving around empty streets with barely any snow.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#126

Post by DrScump »

joecool1029 wrote: post #75
DrScump wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But CA law also says you can't enter an intersection without having clearance to vacate it. In other words, if the cross street itself is backed up such that its traffic backs up or into that intersection and prevents you clearing the intersection as you complete the turn, you violate the "anti gridlock" law.

Most jurisdictions do not consider it blocking the box if you enter the intersection to turn and it turns red after. They consider it blocking the box if you enter with the intention of going straight while it is not clear to do so. This is the case for NY state, see VTL 1175: http://www.safeny.ny.gov/rowa-vt.htm

CA Vehicle Code 22526(a): "Notwithstanding any official traffic control signal indication to proceed, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter an intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#127

Post by falcolas »

joshvm wrote: post #109
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to see how we could get from where we are right now, infrastructure-wise, to there, at least here in the US. We can barely keep our roads driveable in some places, much less modernized with the latest in smart beacons and such.

It wouldn't necessarily need to be in-road, but there are numerous places where you could adapt. For instance, cats-eyes in the UK (retro-reflective markers) are placed on virtually all motorways at lane boundaries and the car could look for a signature from them (I imagine at night, autonomous cars already use them as a feature for lane boundary detection). Nobody bats an eyelid about re-setting cats-eyes every time…

I've seen those cat eyes before, but never in locations where plows have to travel. They are also relatively easy to place, just requiring some tar and a manual "pick & place". Making something plow proof would require embedding it in the road, either with a drill or a "rumble strip" like divot.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#128

Post by falcolas »

randomdata wrote: post #104
avmich wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's also after cleaning streets right after heavy snowfall? :) For snow-covered roads we'll have to wait for reports from, say, Chelyabinsk. Or Tomsk, or Novosibirsk...

I expect this point of contention is that the snowfall wasn't all that heavy. In Canada we typically don't think of snowfall as being heavy until you're pushing 30cms (12 inches) in a single snowfall event. Indictors suggest that they'd be lucky if they received 5cms in this single event, and have no more than 30cms from all of the snowfall events the city has received.

Or the "heavy snowfall" was immediately followed by a 10° heatwave. Usually that's the only way we get black city streets after a snowfall in the northern US.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#129

Post by falcolas »

Jyaif wrote: post #47

Why do people think that driving on snow/ice is going to be a challenge? Compared to recognizing the cars, lights, pedestrians, and their intention, that's pretty straightforward.

Well, when driving on snow and ice, none of your control inputs map exactly to the motion of the vehicle. Accelerate? Naw, let's yaw. Brake? Maybe tomorrow. Steering? Let's go straight. Going straight? Let's veer you over into the other lane. Figured out how to handle map inputs to road outputs? It heats up/cools down and changes everything. Again.

In the best case, visibility restriction is limited to the sides of the roads, like in this video. In the worst cases, there is barely any indication of where the road is, and signs are also covered in snow. GPS is being blocked by the storm overhead. Forward visibility is down to being measured in tens of feet, from 10 miles only five minutes earlier.

As for the vehicle itself and the electronics: in winter, they will need to function pretty much perfectly at up to -40°. Cars, if left outside, can be covered in layers of over 6" thick of snow and/or ice - and not always just on the top.

While operating on winter roads, they will be exposed to a constant spray of slush and snow, combined with salt and sand. This spray will coat the grills and tails of cars. My vehicle has parking assist and radar assisted cruise control; neither of which work after driving down a road with fresh snow. Even the otherwise protected rear view camera gets coated in muck just from the aerodynamics of the car's tail.

None of this is impossible to overcome, but the typical "it's just an engineering problem" is aggravating to hear.

Re: Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video]

#130

Post by romwell »

DrScump wrote: post #126
joecool1029 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most jurisdictions do not consider it blocking the box if you enter the intersection to turn and it turns red after. They consider it blocking the box if you enter with the intention of going straight while it is not clear to do so. This is the case for NY state, see VTL 1175: http://www.safeny.ny.gov/rowa-vt.htm

CA Vehicle Code 22526(a): "Notwithstanding any official traffic control signal indication to proceed, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter an intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side." https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_d…

This does not seem to be relevant to the situation here (waiting for the oncoming traffic to clear): usually, there's plenty of space to turn into, but one has to yield to oncoming traffic before occupying that space.
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