Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#731

Post by leereeves » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #440

jakelazaroff wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, legally, we treat everyone equal. Even if you start with the premise that no laws explicitly target any race/gender/etc, it doesn't automatically follow that everyone is treated equally under the law.

Agreed. The parent comment is asking why the idea of equal opportunity is seen as far left. I am trying to explain that everyone pretty much agrees we should have equal opportunities, and explain that the debate has now become about whether we enforce/regulate the distribution of wealth and jobs such that society ends up statistically "equal". And that this is a very controversial and political topic and has nothing…

> everyone pretty much agrees we should have equal opportunities

Equal outcomes isn't really compatible with equal opportunities.

Advocates of equal outcomes want fewer opportunities for people from whatever group they label "overrepresented" or "privileged". In the most extreme cases, they want opportunities to be designated for certain groups and forbidden to others.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#732

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

biocomputation wrote: post #681

sturgill wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when did Brendan Eich make public comments? When he privately donated to a cause? You can be dismissed from leading a company today by privately supporting conservative causes. And there’s very little threat of a liberal CEO being dismissed independent of his private/public statements. I have no desire to speak to any particular political subject in this forum; but it’s incredibly disingenuous to pretend this onl…

Right, but Mozilla can't attract/keep great LGBTQ employees if the CEO believes that it is okay to actively oppress LGBTQ employees. By extension, this also extends to heterosexual employees who have LGBTQ friends and family members, or to any potential employees who believe in LGBTQ equality. ( And before anyone thinks that 'oppress' is too strong a word, the inability to marry caused tax and inheritance implication…

Oppress is still too strong.

There is an a implications to everything. Have an opinion on healthcare, and someone might die according to you preferred version of it.

He participated within the political system, he did not "[believe] that it is okay to actively oppress LGBTQ employees", except, in your interpretation, by participating in the political system. This extends to "any potential employees who believe in LGBTQ equality" in the same way it extends to anyone with any political opinion; I could mirror the exact same sentiment wrt pro-choice - "believes it is ok to actively murder" etc.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#733

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #698

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand why someone would vote for Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, but for the life of me I assume that if you voted for Trump you were ok with everything that was known about him; e.g. you believe it is OK to talk about grabbing pussies in the locker room. Trump is special, never before have we had a candidate on either side like this, at least Bill Clinton appeared to be ashamed about his BJ in the whitehouse.…

> you believe it is OK to talk about grabbing pussies in the locker room Talk is cheap. There's little reason Trump has sexually harassed anyone more than Bill Clinton - and Hillary still sticks by him.

I don't think even Trump has sexually harassed Bill Clinton.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#734

Post by walshemj » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

jerkstate wrote: post #383

manofstick wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As non-american, living outside of america (but having lived there for a year and a half starting January 2000), I concur. I still follow american politics quite a bit (too much for me to remain healthy actually) and I'm constantly bamboozled trying to comprehend what people mean by the "far left". To me it seems like any one is considered "far left" if they believe in: - treating all people, regardless of race, gend…

I don't think those beliefs are far-left, I believe what makes beliefs far-left is the conclusions that are drawn from them are typically to reduce the freedom of the governed to achieve those objectives: - Treat all people equally, and legislate that outcomes are the same for all groups of people - Believe in the science of climate change and legislate reductions programs which incentivize offshoring manufacturing (…

So why in the USA are employee share options and gambling wins taxed harder than by your definition far left UK.

Also why is setting up a company so expensive.

One rightwing think tank did a survey of countries and the UK came out as abetter place to do business :-)

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#735

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #665

dragonwriter wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump deported more people already living in the US ; Clinton and Obama deported more at the border, by enough that total deportations were higher.

Turning away somebody at a border is not deportation.

It's part of the deportation stats and the only things that makes the “Trump deported more than Obama” thing even technically true.

Obviously, yes, there is a substantive difference between removing someone who has only entered so far as the border checkpoint is on the US side of the border and removing someone who has been living in the US. That's the whole point of pointing it out.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#736

Post by dominotw » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

oriolid wrote: post #71

dominotw wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm this. Indians in SV are big trump supporters.

India with all of its poverty, inequality and bigotism is more or less Trump's ideal country.

1. strange and irrelavent rant. Curiously, wasn't downvoted, prbly due to 'anti trump comment' downvote shield.

2. poverty, inequality and bigotism actually increase throughout obama era( verifiable via internet search).

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#737

Post by dominotw » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #403

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mexicans too. But thats a global effect, immigrants usually vote anti-immigration - it seems paradoxical at first, but they have the the most to loose.

How is fixing H1B abuse by a few companies (Infosys and such) considered an anti-immigration stance? As far as I know, the proposed solution was not to reduce the yearly cap on H1B visas (which indeed would reduce the number of immigrants), but to put higher base requirements, so the quality of an average candidate is better and that qualified candidates don't waste years and years trying to just get the visa while b…

> How is fixing H1B abuse by a few companies (Infosys and such) considered an anti-immigration stance?

Fixing this would result in higher quality competition coming in for existing H1B immigrants.

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#738

Post by bmm6o » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #722

eschaton wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it’s worth reflecting on just why that might be.

I agree, it's worth reflecting on. I see Trump's rise as a response to people on the left who celebrate "the end of men", expel men without giving them an opportunity to defend themselves, unapologetically depict men and white people (and white men most of all) as evil, demand white people "absent themselves", and offer jobs for which white people need not apply. Not "far-left crazies", but major media outlets and un…

Citation needed. Also, you are being downvoted because you are making baseless claims and accusations; you are not being "silenced" or "censored".

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#739

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #440

jakelazaroff wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, legally, we treat everyone equal. Even if you start with the premise that no laws explicitly target any race/gender/etc, it doesn't automatically follow that everyone is treated equally under the law.

Agreed. The parent comment is asking why the idea of equal opportunity is seen as far left. I am trying to explain that everyone pretty much agrees we should have equal opportunities, and explain that the debate has now become about whether we enforce/regulate the distribution of wealth and jobs such that society ends up statistically "equal". And that this is a very controversial and political topic and has nothing…

I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. The point of contention is whether we've actually achieved equal opportunity.

As far as I know, there are no remaining laws explicitly targeting e.g. a race, and racial discrimination is socially taboo. A lot of people recognize that and make the invalid argument I described above — that everyone now is treated equally. IMO, a lot of the left operates in the space between that and what you've described, where they want to eliminate implicitly discriminatory laws and social norms.

I'm also genuinely curious — let's say an industry discriminates against a group of people (we'll use the tech industry and either women or conservatives, to keep this somewhat neutral). How do you try to correct the lack of equal opportunity without it looking something like trying to achieve equal outcomes?

Re: Like Peter Thiel, Tech Workers Feel Alienated by Silicon Valley ‘Echo Chamber’

#740

Post by wpietri » Mon, Feb 19, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #165

friedman23 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just bizarre to to me. I moved here from the Midwest, which I found stifling. There's a far greater variety of social values and political ideologies Really? Because the only values I've heard expressed have been standard democratic talking points and once in a while far left ideologies.

Precisely! Not what OP's political views are but I would guess if he found the Midwest "stifling" and SF "a breath of fresh air", it's because he's aligned with the politics in SF. Having also lived in the mid-West and SF, I would agree the mid-West leans more conservative, but in any decent sized city you'll find both view points (election resulted confirm it). I would say SF is just the opposite of a hardcore conse…

This is definitely not my experience. Your framing that there are only two significant viewpoints (thus, "both") is exactly part of what I was glad to get away from.

There are many different sets of "social values and political ideologies" in the Bay Area. That was the glory of it for me. I have met all sorts of radicals and artists and weirdos here. And plenty of perfectly normal people, but whose notions of "normal" don't overlap all that much. E.g., the Lebanese-American family that ran a store in my neighborhood. The Latino family in the apartment next door. GLBT families far more into normcore than I'll ever be. Etc, etc.

I think the problem with both the WSJ piece and your approach is that "social values and political ideologies" is some sort of code, an attempt to frame a very particular strain of conservativism as just another kind of viewpoint while carefully not looking at the contents of that strain.

The only viewpoints I've seen people be actively hostile to here are ones that already include active hostility to other people. If you start out with some anti-gay slurs in the Castro, for example, and you will definitely be made to feel that there is something wrong with you. And that's not shocking to me at all; after a lifetime of hostility and abuse from self-proclaimed conservatives, gay people are quite reasonably sensitive.