Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 198 posts

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#141

Post by palunon »

rimliu wrote: post #41
lliamander wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Slightly baffling to see this celebrated by men in these careers as some kind of vindication. An amusing and insightful observation. I would say it's baffling until you realize that the alternative is that the whole the gap in female STEM employment continues to be attributed solely to male sexism. It's better to be perceived as stupid than evil. Also, are we all now in agreement that there are likely cognitive dif…

> are we all now in agreement that there are likely > cognitive differences between men and women Alas, far from it I am afraid. Which is very puzzling. Not many will argue that men and women have different physiology, different physical build. But god forbid from making the assumption that cognitive interests may also differ.

Do you have relevant scientific literature to back that claim ?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#142

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

telesilla wrote: post #81
K0nserv wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boys desire for large pay checks could be explained by patriarchal/societal expectations that they must be the main bread winner in a household

Right! I'm really supportive of working towards social change where a person's role in life is no longer defined by their gender.

Given that there are consistent biological[1] and psychological[2] differences between the sexes globally, I'm not sure this would be an achievable goal without hormonal modification, which would wreck the quality of life of one or both genders.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#143

Post by Valmar »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #80
Valmar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women obviously aren't the same, no matter how much gnashing of teeth of matter occurs, because both have their strengths in different areas, according to their overall psychology. Men and women are psychologically-different, and no amount of trying to force a desperate sameness will change that. In fact, it might even cause people to want to be even more different than before. The SJWs campaign for "sameness…

It's not just the SJWs though. Google recently fired a talented developer for essentially saying "Men and women obviously aren't the same".

Good point. I'll revise:

It's not just the SJWs, but also companies and corporations that cooperate with the ridiculous bullshit of the utterly divisive and politically-correct gender/race insanity that's corroding various aspects of Western culture.

I've been verbose enough, because I'm quite fed up with how much this utter crap is infesting culture and causing so much trouble for innocent people who don't remotely deserve to have be treated like they have been.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#144

Post by Valmar »

tnzn wrote: post #136
Valmar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women obviously aren't the same, no matter how much gnashing of teeth of matter occurs, because both have their strengths in different areas, according to their overall psychology. Men and women are psychologically-different, and no amount of trying to force a desperate sameness will change that. In fact, it might even cause people to want to be even more different than before. The SJWs campaign for "sameness…

"men and women are different" is such a broad statement you sure could say it and then say "duh anyone who disagrees is bullshit". Here's big news : blue eyed and brown eyed people are different. As for the rest of your text, it's all just broad statements with very little scientific value, since theybare then again broad claims. Girls prefer pink, y'know. So natural.

The SJWs have no evidence for their broad and vague claims either, which are almost completely exaggerated for personal gain, and have nothing to do with actual social justice, which they seek to deny to those they hate, attack and defame.

Don't try and drag science into this, when this is a set of social issues based on a bunch of people's mental health issues and how they're taking it out on other people.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#145

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

TuringTest wrote: post #120
mpweiher wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common talking point of the dominant narrative but simply not true. When you average all women and all men, you get a "gap". However, like the imbalance in fields, this is almost entirely due to different choices. When you control for factors such as field, hours worked, years worked the gap effectively disappears.

Yeah, isn't it wonderful that when you factor out the discriminating variables, discrimination all but disappears? Choices made by women are influenced by the glass ceiling, society expectations that women will take care of children and the elderly, and the traditional fields where they're expected to work. The decision to measure the gender gap by comparing equal working hours and equal job positions is not innocent…

If women choose to take less lucrative careers, make less lucrative family roles, and negotiate their salaries less than men, than that's fine with me. Personal freedom and equal opportunity will not always mean equality of outcome, especially in richer countries where women are free to live the life and career they want instead of the life and career they need to survive.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#146

Post by Valmar »

tnzn wrote: post #135
nukeop wrote: post #19

Forcing people to change their interests based on an agenda only results in them being even less interested than they were in the first place. There is also the backlash to the nonstop pushing of politically-based hiring instead of meritocratic practices. Some even state "meritocracy" is outright oppressive and should never be applied.

Maybe because these people realized meritocracy is an outright lie and that in any instance there are gender/racial/class/geographical/... inequality, or even biological inequality you right-wingers are so keen to point at, so there's no way to actually talk about merit ?

A meritocracy isn't unfair by definition. It is an ideology based around what people can achieve. These achievements don't have to be grand or anything. They can be small and incremental. It is an ideology about empowering people, no matter who they are.

Even those who don't have equal capability compared to others can contribute in small ways, and so, they can indeed achieve merit based on merely doing what they can do, even if it is small.

But, it is many small things that add up to massive changes, and that is what a meritocracy is ~ just chip in where you can contribute, and you can make a difference, no matter who you are.

However, there are issues where a meritocracy cannot be of use, and that is in a system designed deliberately to exclude merit, and instead empower those who prefer there be imbalance, injustice, and unfairness. SJW ideologies which seek to belittle and mute those they consider the "enemy" are like this.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#147

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

tnzn wrote: post #136
Valmar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women obviously aren't the same, no matter how much gnashing of teeth of matter occurs, because both have their strengths in different areas, according to their overall psychology. Men and women are psychologically-different, and no amount of trying to force a desperate sameness will change that. In fact, it might even cause people to want to be even more different than before. The SJWs campaign for "sameness…

"men and women are different" is such a broad statement you sure could say it and then say "duh anyone who disagrees is bullshit". Here's big news : blue eyed and brown eyed people are different. As for the rest of your text, it's all just broad statements with very little scientific value, since theybare then again broad claims. Girls prefer pink, y'know. So natural.

There are consistent, globally found physical[1] and psychological differences[2] between the sexes, so it's a bit more complicated than comparing people with different eye colors.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#148

Post by Valmar »

nukeop wrote: post #114
zerr wrote: post #14

One reason could be - in poor/developing countries STEM is understood as the escape path from the poverty, while in developed countries people seem assured in their future even if they go in humanities or any other non-tech field - thus following their interests/hobbies rather than the need. EDIT: unintentional tl;dr as it seems :)

This could be true, assuming USA is a poor/developing country.

Rich and prosperous corporations, and a trodden-on and money-deprived worker-class, not to mention the abused poor and homeless?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#149

Post by TuringTest »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #145
TuringTest wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, isn't it wonderful that when you factor out the discriminating variables, discrimination all but disappears? Choices made by women are influenced by the glass ceiling, society expectations that women will take care of children and the elderly, and the traditional fields where they're expected to work. The decision to measure the gender gap by comparing equal working hours and equal job positions is not innocent…

If women choose to take less lucrative careers, make less lucrative family roles, and negotiate their salaries less than men, than that's fine with me. Personal freedom and equal opportunity will not always mean equality of outcome, especially in richer countries where women are free to live the life and career they want instead of the life and career they need to survive.

For some definition of "choose", a significant part of the choice is imposed from external forces, not freely decided. You're saying that you're OK with people not offering the more lucrative jobs to some people just because they're women, paying less for comparable works that are traditionally done by women, and men expecting that their wives - mothers - female relatives will adopt caretaking roles in addition to their professional careers; i.e. you're OK with the societal factors that make a high percentage of women put up with less income.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM

#150

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

TuringTest wrote: post #149
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women choose to take less lucrative careers, make less lucrative family roles, and negotiate their salaries less than men, than that's fine with me. Personal freedom and equal opportunity will not always mean equality of outcome, especially in richer countries where women are free to live the life and career they want instead of the life and career they need to survive.

For some definition of "choose", a significant part of the choice is imposed from external forces, not freely decided. You're saying that you're OK with people not offering the more lucrative jobs to some people just because they're women, paying less for comparable works that are traditionally done by women, and men expecting that their wives - mothers - female relatives will adopt caretaking roles in addition to th…

These aren't the 1950's anymore. The career choices of women _are_ freely decided nowadays. They have the ability to go to college, get a STEM degree, and become computer scientists if they want. Equal opportunity will not mean equal outcome when there are broad physical and psychological differences between the genders.
Post reply on HN