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Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

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Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#221

Post by reitanqild »

purple-again wrote: post #108
reitanqild wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Helping drive up the numbers of women and other underrepresented populations in CS should be a major priority for developed countries. What if we try to respect womens choices and work to get them better pay for the very important work they actually do, first? Why is it that nursing or teaching should be paid so much less than software engineering? Or even worse: why is it so much cooler to be an engineeer like me…

Because that’s how capitalism works. Money follows value generated to society not individual perceived value. A teacher at maximum capacity can only deliver a tiny tiny fraction of the value that a software developer can. 100 students per class 8 classes a day 40 year career. You have provided value to 32,000 children all of whom have two parents so value to 96,000 people well say.

Then what are teachers who create good engineering/programming students worth?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#222

Post by hyperdunc »

kyleschiller wrote: post #152

Here are three possible explanations for the observed behavior that don't require a belief in inherent biological differences: 1. Since countries with lower gender equality also tend to be poorer, STEM could be seen as a rare opportunity to escape poverty, and this motivation could outweighs any kind of societal bias agains female participation. 2. A quick glance at the graph of results in [0], shows that there's als…

If a woman doesn't feel compelled to pursue STEM to escape poverty - if she can make a career choice based on non-economic factors - then it's reasonable to assume her more innate traits and desires will come into play. (One such trait that asserts is a preference for dealing with people over abstract systems.) These traits are at their root biological and only modulated by culture.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#223

Post by LyndsySimon »

kenning wrote: post #177
platz wrote: post #16

However you feel about Jordan Peterson, he brings up this fact all the time, esp w/ regards to Scandinavia, would define this phenomenon as the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, and that the genders, when provided the option, tend towards different preferences (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses), and that environment factors can skew these natural preferences in either direction. raises the…

> (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses) How about doctors vs nurses? I think this is a much more relevant comparison. In the united states (sorry) male doctors outnumber female by about 2:1 [1], while female nurses outnumber male nurses by more than 10:1 [2]. Comparing these two professions it's a lot easier to make the argument that women are implicitly encouraged to set their expectations lower than men, who actually may fe…

Why the assumption that nurses are "lower" than doctors?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#224

Post by vonmoltke »

aspaceman wrote: post #181
throwaway613834 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. If you feel differently, and you are a woman then I highly encourage you to become more involved with activism because that is the only way to make your voice and opinions heard. And what kind of social or career impact on their lives do you expect from such activism against the current flow?

In the United States, political views are a protected class and one can sue if fired on the basis of them. I expect one will claim that James Damore offers evidence of a life being "ruined" by their views, but I think the kid is doing pretty damn well for himself - especially due to his views. If you are a conservative activist in tech then feel free to shout your views from the rooftops, I'm sure there are many on 4…

> In the United States, political views are a protected class and one can sue if fired on the basis of them.

Political views and affiliations are not protected under federal law, though at least some states have protected them. See this page: https://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#225

Post by hyperdunc »

aspaceman wrote: post #209
hyperdunc wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a woman is going to be put off participating in tech because she feels unwelcome then she probably isn't that interested in tech to begin with. If people do what they love they will be driven to overcome barriers, perceived and real.

This is a horribly un-empathetic position to take that ignores most women's testimonials. Reading the accounts of women in tech who have been forced out would not lead me to believe that they just aren't that interested. They are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives. Being so skeptical of these opinions because they're in the minority, rather than evaluating their actual merit…

I've no doubt certain individuals have been given a hard time, as in the accounts you've read.

But I don't believe for a second that women "are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives."

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#226

Post by serf »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #223
kenning wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses) How about doctors vs nurses? I think this is a much more relevant comparison. In the united states (sorry) male doctors outnumber female by about 2:1 [1], while female nurses outnumber male nurses by more than 10:1 [2]. Comparing these two professions it's a lot easier to make the argument that women are implicitly encouraged to set their expectations lower than men, who actually may fe…

Why the assumption that nurses are "lower" than doctors?

lesser pay rates on average, less training required, more nurses than doctors exist in the work force.

That doesn't make the profession less noble or endearing or anything -- but by any metric that we use to judge modern occupations, a nurse ranks lower than a doctor in most every way besides number of hours worked.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#227

Post by aoeusnth1 »

walshemj wrote: post #157
aoeusnth1 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are women more status-seeking than men? Are women more money-seeking than men? It seems to me that the assumptions which gave rise to your comment would imply that Wall Street traders should be dominated by women. Why is this not the case, in your opinion? Would increasing the pay and status of a job increase, or decrease the percentage of women? Should CEOs be paid more to increase their percentage of women?

Well Traders do have this barrow boy image medicine or law has a much higher "social" status in the UK and I bet the USA also

Why do you suppose women dominate primary school teaching? Is it because it’s too high status and too well paid?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#228

Post by Pyxl101 »

kenning wrote: post #177
platz wrote: post #16

However you feel about Jordan Peterson, he brings up this fact all the time, esp w/ regards to Scandinavia, would define this phenomenon as the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, and that the genders, when provided the option, tend towards different preferences (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses), and that environment factors can skew these natural preferences in either direction. raises the…

> (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses) How about doctors vs nurses? I think this is a much more relevant comparison. In the united states (sorry) male doctors outnumber female by about 2:1 [1], while female nurses outnumber male nurses by more than 10:1 [2]. Comparing these two professions it's a lot easier to make the argument that women are implicitly encouraged to set their expectations lower than men, who actually may fe…

Let's explore some other possible theories for the gender ratio of doctors and nurses. What if it was the case that men more than women are attracted to the most demanding jobs? And women more than men favor family-friendly hours and work life-balance? If that was the case, then it could explain why men more than women become doctors, and women nurses: because becoming a doctor is significantly more demanding than becoming a nurse.

Getting through medical school and residency requires absolutely horrendous working hours including night shifts, and extremely long work shifts that seem unreasonable or unsafe to me, but that doctors have just accepted. Becoming a medical doctor definitely seems like it's in the upper echelon of demanding jobs. Within the field of medicine, men also disproportionately select the most demanding specialties like surgery while female doctors are more likely to become pediatricians.

The theory that men and women have different preferences concerning demanding jobs and work-life balance has been scientifically studied, and there's evidence in support of it. I'll share a quote from one publication that contains citations to further studies: "Women, careers, and work-life preferences":

> The majority of working women seek a large degree of work-life balance (Hakim, 2005), certainly more than men do. Women are more likely to ask for shorter work hours than to ask for higher pay or promotion (Babcock & Laschever, 2003).

https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2011/SPP457/um/23632422/Hakim...

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#229

Post by [deleted] »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #227
walshemj wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Traders do have this barrow boy image medicine or law has a much higher "social" status in the UK and I bet the USA also

Why do you suppose women dominate primary school teaching? Is it because it’s too high status and too well paid?

[deleted]

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#230

Post by [deleted] »

globuous wrote: post #116

Whenever thinking of gender equality, I like to go back to Beauvoir. plato.stanford.edu's page [1] is fantastic, here's an extract: "Before The Second Sex, the sexed/gendered body was not an object of phenomenological investigation. Beauvoir changed that. Her argument for sexual equality takes two directions. First, it exposes the ways that masculine ideology exploits the sexual difference to create systems of inequa…

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