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Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

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Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#131

Post by ejstronge »

throwaway613834 wrote: post #122
ejstronge wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His argument proposed that women are biologically less capable than men to perform certain software-associated tasks[1]. I could find more questionable positions but have attached a copy of the memo below. Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things. We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how peo…

> His argument proposed that women are biologically less capable than men to perform certain software-associated tasks Could you please point to the exact sentence that says this? Because I did a quick search for "biolog" and I did not find a single passage that proposed what you wrote. What I did ̶s̶a̶y̶ find is sentences like "women are generally more cooperative and agreeable than men" which say nothing about wome…

> Could you please point to the exact sentence that says this? Because I did a quick search for "biolog" and I did not find a single passage that proposed what you wrote. What I did say is sentences like "women are generally more cooperative and agreeable than men" which say nothing about women being less capable of performing any software-associated tasks.

From his article:

On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because...

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#132

Post by dahart »

nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

Men and women do have different criteria today. But how can you tell when they're cultural criteria, or when they're intrinsic and inherent gender differences? Are you assuming that the current differences in career choices aren't already artificially forced away from the middle by cultural biases and even perceived or real sexism?

Sure, it is always "possible" to do harm by taking action, but is it likely? There is widely acknowledged bias that is not believed to be a natural intrinsic gender difference by many scientists who study this, so is it better to do nothing, or to try and address the issue?

To me, this question seems a little like asking whether I should avoid erasing some files when my computer fills up, because I might delete something important. Yes, you could accidentally delete something you wanted to keep, but on the other hand, if you want to continue using it, you have no choice.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#133

Post by [deleted] »

psyc wrote: post #71
mikejb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said worse than that, IIRC. But his lawsuit will maybe bring more clarity on what he really thinks vs. what might have been mis-written or mis-read in various versions of 'the memo'.

There is a tragic ambiguity in the memo. There is a line that says women may not be suitable for all tech jobs. There is another that clearly says it's tech that isn't suitable to women, and can change to accommodate them. His opponents are sure he meant the former, and his supporters are sure he meant the latter. Still others believe that any hint of biological essentialism whatsoever must not be tolerated. So it is…

[deleted]

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#134

Post by aspaceman »

jhall1468 wrote: post #107
aspaceman wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If you feel differently, and you are a woman then I highly encourage you to become more involved with activism because that is the only way to make your voice and opinions heard. It is not fair that all womens' positions have been decided by activists, and many women in tech have specifically noted this issue. However, activism is available for any individual interested in it.

> Yes. If you feel differently, and you are a woman I'm not sure you understand the goal of gender equality. > then I highly encourage you to become more involved with activism because that is the only way to make your voice and opinions heard. I'm a software engineer. Every woman on our team is treated as an equal. Because they are. But apparently your experience = every experience. Maybe, just maybe, the women that…

> But apparently your experience = every experience.

I never made any such claim. Instead you're the one arguing that because your team has no issues, then clearly the women who speak out are in the minority.

I'm simply arguing that these women who speak out exist, and we shouldn't just ignore their claims without evaluating their merit. Instead, you say we should ignore them because they are "in the minority?". Maybe it is you who does understand the goals of gender equality. A view should never be ignored because it is the minority - it should be evaluated on the basis of its own merit.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#136

Post by srtjstjsj »

js8 wrote: post #61
sannee wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why we should try to make somebody choose a subject they didn't choose to do. If they didn't choose to do a subject because, for example, they had their high school teacher(s) tell them that he "does not expect female students to do as well as male students" (I have seen that happen few years back when I was still in high school), then it surely is an undertaking worth considering.

OK, so you're saying they are misinformed? Fair enough. I don't mind informing them, as long as they have a free choice and are not coerced into selecting a career that is not interesting. However, this very much contradicts to the paradox. Why should women in countries with greater gender equality be less informed about available options?

Once question is "would does 'gender equality' mean"? The OP article doesn't say

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#137

Post by throwaway613834 »

ejstronge wrote: post #131
throwaway613834 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His argument proposed that women are biologically less capable than men to perform certain software-associated tasks Could you please point to the exact sentence that says this? Because I did a quick search for "biolog" and I did not find a single passage that proposed what you wrote. What I did ̶s̶a̶y̶ find is sentences like "women are generally more cooperative and agreeable than men" which say nothing about wome…

> Could you please point to the exact sentence that says this? Because I did a quick search for "biolog" and I did not find a single passage that proposed what you wrote. What I did say is sentences like "women are generally more cooperative and agreeable than men" which say nothing about women being less capable of performing any software-associated tasks. From his article: On average, men and women biologically dif…

> > On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because...

How do you conclude "women are biologically less capable than men to perform certain software-associated tasks" from merely that sentence?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#138

Post by mmanfrin »

psyc wrote: post #32
nicolashahn wrote: post #9

I wonder if it's possible that men and women, on average, have differing criteria for choosing careers, and artificially forcing the distributions towards the middle might do more harm than good.

I seem to recall a certain young engineer who wondered about this publicly not long ago, without concealing his identity. It impacted his career.

He didn't 'wonder about this publicly', he wrote an argument insisting that women were less capable of doing engineering. Don't sugar coat his words, he is not a martyr.

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#139

Post by srtjstjsj »

bitL wrote: post #115
webkike wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people care mostly about money. If the only reason you didn't appreciate her making that choice was because she was a woman, then you are sexist

I was upset she was wasting her talent going purely after money (she was a winner of math/programming competitions). And men are often way more idealistic, willing to endure hardships for ideas instead of cashing out whenever possible. She ended up programming in the end due to job market, but could have achieved way more than working for Accenture-type companies on BS assignments.

What are you on about? Are you unaware that the finance industry is dominated by men? That generally men are more wage earners and women are more homemakers, so men have more pressure to economic success than women?

Re: Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads

#140

Post by darawk »

geofft wrote: post #68
darawk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible. But it's also possible that it's not skewed, or even skewed the other way. It's as though someone should investigate this question before embarking on programs to shift the distribution to arbitrary places.

> It's as though someone should investigate this question before embarking on programs to shift the distribution to arbitrary places. If the status quo is 90/10 or worse, I don't agree: 50/50 is the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis can certainly be disproven, but the amount of evidence needed to hold a belief that 50/50 is probably correct is much smaller than the amount of evidence needed to hold a belief that 9…

I said that someone should investigate it. As in, actively. 50/50 is a null hypothesis. Another perfectly reasonable null hypothesis is the status quo.

For instance, do you know that the proportion of female software engineers is approximately the same as the proportion of females that pass the AP computer science exam in high school? This implies strongly that if there is some effect that's shifting the distribution against women, it happens before high school. That is to say, it has nothing to do with workplace culture or discriminatory hiring practices. Of course, that doesn't mean that those things aren't important - they are. But they likely aren't causing under-representation of women in CS.

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