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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#281

Post by microcolonel »

icebraining wrote: post #278
microcolonel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who have averse reactions to almost every plant based food, and can largely only eat meat or suffer horrible mental and physical health problems. Diet is not one-size-fits all, and we have basically no idea how complex diet is, or the specific long term effects of most dietary interventions on people. It is absolutely reprehensible to represent going vegan as an obvious way forward when it is unclear…

Can you link to a description of that condition? It sounds fascinating.

Seems to be unstudied, but this person[0] reports has both severe mental and physical reactions currently to almost anything other than meat, though she was able to eat some vegetables safely before. Her father has similar reactions to many plant-based foods, and they both have had serious disorders activated seemingly by diet, especially severe depression.

In addition, many people are unable to eat yeast or yeast extracts, which are among the few commonly available non-flesh sources of the crucial vitamin B12.

[0]: http://mikhailapeterson.com/2017/12/18/zero-carb-carnivore-d...

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#282

Post by erric »

tluyben2 wrote: post #256
brownbat wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reference. I will note that he seems to shrug, especially in footnote 19, as if to confess that whether lobsters feel pain or merely express reflexes is basically unknowable, not for any lack of humans trying to figure it out. He seems genuinely conflicted, rather than firmly opinionated, certain only that people should take these questions more seriously. Or maybe he's being coy, to avoid alienating the gourma…

Why would you kill spiders? I wondered after reading your comment. I never had the urge or need to kill one; do other people and why?

When I was three my family lived in Hawaii where “Banana Spiders” (large tarantula looking things) used to get into our beds at night. They don’t just crawl, they kind of hop about (or so three year old me remembers). So, to answer your question I have a standing agreement with the arachnids that inhabit my abode: I know you’re here and that you eat bugs, which I appreciate, however if I see you, game over.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#283

Post by erric »

wallace_f wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything Radiolab spin-off More Perfect recently discussed the “cosmetic” presence of a paralytic drug in lethal injection concoctions. I can’t help but see a parallel.

That's terrifying. At least for the lobster, we're not really sure how they interpret pain. They don't have a brain in the same way the humans do. As a vegetarian, I personally would go back to meat if I just knew my meal had a good life and did not suffer needlessly in order for me to eat it. But for the prisoner, this seems like the worst combination: internalized suffering and externalized indifference... So minim…

The latest Hardcore History episode is called "Painfotainment", where Dan Carlin describes the history of executions and shows how they were not only a form of punishment but a large source of entertainment as well; from pre-history through very modern times. [0] It's not been a very easy episode to consume.

I've always been against the death-penalty because it is: permanent, subject to racial bias/applied un-evenly, performed by incompetent persons/botched, recommended by imperfect evidence, highly linked to religious sacrifice and does nothing to actually deter crime.

As for going back to meat, are you following the vat grown protein farmers?

[0: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-...]

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#284

Post by IntronExon »

shabble wrote: post #273
woodson wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venomous. Poisonous is when you die from eating it (like a pufferfish). Sorry if I come off as pedantic, I just see this very often and think it’s a pretty basic distinction.

But is the venom also poisonous?

Most venom isn’t poisonous, as your gastric juices denature the proteins and enzymes which make them dangerous. Big HOWEVER though, is that if you have a cut or any route to your bloodstream in your mouth or throat... then you can be envenomated that way. In addition some animals are both venemous and poisonous, such as tarantulas with urticating hairs.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#285

Post by MaxBarraclough »

chr1 wrote: post #41
tptacek wrote: post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

> My guess is they would

No, your guess is absurd. Of course they wouldn't.

It's always been possible to quite reliably cause extreme pain with little long-term consequence. The pain remains real, and people remain motivated to avoid that pain.

This isn't even a thought experiment - you're just describing torture!

> killing painlessly doesn't let one off the hook, since it is still killing

If we're talking about human beings: obviously. No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Most people treat non-human animals as categorically different.

> And if one thinks killing is ok, then some amount of pain should be ok too.

Non-sequitur.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#286

Post by MaxBarraclough »

majormajor wrote: post #136
chr1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

Hell no. Accidentally catching my hand on a table saw was bad enough, thank you very much. I knew very well I wouldn't die or suffer permanent damage and it still sucked like hell.

Same is true of many afflictions - stubbing your toe, mouth ulcers. Pain remains real even if you know it's for your own benefit and have the option of simply opting-out, see half of medicine.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#287

Post by stordoff »

wallace_f wrote: post #233
stordoff wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the burden is on the state to justify the intrusion of liberty, but providing they can do so (i.e. the proposed action in isolation is a good thing), I'm not seeing the issue - preventing the government from making good interventions because of hypothetical future bad laws seems like an even worse path to take. Ultimately, how can you govern if good actions are just treated as a means to legitimise unspecif…

You're misunderstanding this. The issue is with regard to what constitutes legitimate authority. It's because the government has a monopoly on violence. The time to leash that is when it oversteps its legitimate authority. Not wait until something awful happens when they're locking up communists, reading your email, or killing minorities.

I'll go back to my first question: in this case, what legitimate authority is being overstepped? It seems widely accepted that governments have the ability to make laws for the protection of animal welfare, and we seem in agreement that the ends reached here are a good thing. To me, this seems like a legitimate and proportional use of governmental power.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#288

Post by chr1 »

mirimir wrote: post #166
chr1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

In Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovach novels, virtual torture typically drives victims insane. And for me, I fear prolonged illness and pain more than death.

> virtual torture typically drives victims insane.

Is that self evident though? It seems like the difference between pleasure and pain is that pain is a signal that is interpreted as "get out of here, or you may die". And brain is pretty flexible when it comes to reinterpretting the meaning of signals. E.g. with food taste, some tastes that induce revulsion on first try, become peculiar and interesting after a while.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#289

Post by staticassertion »

wallace_f wrote: post #199
staticassertion wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have laws about which animals can be kept as pets. This is hardly an egregious extension of that power. The law is very plainly there to prevent guinea pigs from being abused. It is not there to extend the government's power. What an extremely odd thing to argue.

The concept is about 'what constitutes legitimate authority?' After all, consider your argument: >'we already have laws about which people can get married. This is hardly an egregious extension of that power. The law is very plainly there to protect children.' What you're advocating by disavowing the above, yet allowing the topic is to say you: "agree with authority when it happens to agree with my moral compass." Sa…

Jesus fucking Christ. It is a law saying that if you want to own a guinea pig you must also own a friend for that guinea pig and you're talking about the founding fathers.

I've read the rest of discussion and this is just the weirdest thing to trigger it.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#290

Post by miles »

itdaniher wrote: post #100
miles wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people It doesn't have to be; in fact, humans, animals, and the planet would be much better off in many ways were we to transition to plant-based diets: Go vegan, save the planet https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/opinions/go-vegan-save-the-pl... Five things would happen if everyone stopped eating meat http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-wou…

If the extensively[1] debunked[2] "What the Health" makes your list, I'm skeptical of the standards to which you hold your sources. Can you provide peer reviewed papers making claims comparable to the sources you provided? [1] https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2017/7/2... [2] http://time.com/4897133/vegan-netflix-what-the-health/

Thanks for the heads up on "What the Health". Sadly, I can no longer edit the submission.

For a meticulously documented presentation, see "How Not To Die: The Role of Diet in Preventing, Arresting, and Reversing Our Top 15 Killers" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXXXygDRyBU

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